The effect of barrel length

[chorizo]

My second ever deer (mature mulie buck) and my first elk (mature bull) were taken with the 370 maxi. Both were slow deaths .

The buck was double lunged at about 50 yards with a charge of 100 grains of goex 3f and literally walked away and around a hill. I followed closely as he covered about 150 yards. Being unaware of me he did what most deer do when hit but still alive he layed down facing directly away from me. I sneaked to within about 25 yards and he was still not aware of my presence but his ears were standing straight up. When they are close to expiring there ears will be down. I decided he was probably capable of jumping to his feet and continuing on so I put another maxi in the back of his neck.

That stupid deer apparently did not realize how many FPE he had taken.

The bull was hit perfect broadside with the maxi. He was all alone and didn;t have a cow to tell him to get the H%*l out of there so he milled around looking every direction. I had jumped behind a spruce to reload. The behaviour of the bull was such that I was certain I had missed. Once reloaded I stepped out from behind the spruce and he spotted me immediately. We were in a narrow valley at about 10,500 feet. If youve been in the west you know that the edges of the valley are where the thick black timber begins. I was about to shoot the second shot and the bull keeled over.

Now, he had been on his feet for at least 20 seconds or more from the time of the hit until he dropped. An elk can travel a long long way in that amount of time. It would have been one long track if he had bolted.

To give an idea of how far an elk can go in a hurry, A lead cow that I double lunged and took out the top of the heart lasted literally five seconds and traveled a little over 100 yards.

So, I'm not enamored with conicals. Yes, they are good but really I consider the maxi to be the bottom of that heap. I still play with them now and then and have recently acquired a lee mold for their 50 modern minie. It has a flat nose and is probably a better killer. Several of my grandkids are conical shooters so I keep them supplied and I'll have them try the Lee minies.

I don't put much stock in Toby's opinions on muzzle loading and I've seen his 800/1100 fpe theory disproven too many times.

Lot's of poo-pooing and this and that doesn't work.

The 800/1100 fpe concept isn't Toby's...he just uses it as do I because it is a good measuring stick..but if that isn't valid what is? So tell me, what does work? Tennguns 250 ftlbs roundball 2x4 measuring gauge? You obviously think more is required because of your inability to kill an elk and deer outright or are you enamored with the "magical killing machine" 178 gr 50 cal round ball that puts out at best 600 ftlbs of energy at the muzzle. A round ball has less "point" than the pointed conical so it is a better killer?

If I could draw a logical thread through all of that I would...I just can't get there from here.

If none of the quoted measuring sticks work, do we just pull out random solutions from our nether regions?

Explain what works now that you have given us the myriad of what doesn't

 

[chorizo]

@tenngun "There is no magic bullet. Ball is the bottom of the heap. And even massive wounds a deer bear or other animal can cover lots of ground before dying."

He is absolutely correct. But I will also add, some are better and some are even much better than others.

 

[beardedhorse]

Longcruise, What was the powder charge used for your tables in grains and granulation? Was it black powder or a substitute? 70 grains of FFFg in my .54 caliber with a 33 and 1/3 inch long barrel as a flint and percussion is sufficient for actual harvests on deer, elk and antelope to a hundred yards and beyond. My goal and preference is get close as you can. Last pronghorn bagged was 15 yards.

 

[beardedhorse]

I forgot to mention that I use a patched round ball, not conical. On a 24 inch long barrel TC White Mountain,the same 70 grain load of FFFg shooting a .530 patched round ball is very effective to 50 yards. Beyond that the groups aren't tight enough for me to justify taking shots an animals.

 

[beardedhorse]

Somewhere my first post never got through. Question for Longcruise. What powder charge and granulation and formulation (black powder or substitute) did you use to compile your data? You quoted from the Colorado State Muzzle Loading Association. If you are a member (or not) and will be attending their Winter Convention in March, would you be willing to present a short, hour or shorter class on your findings? I've mostly hunted and harvested deer, elk and pronghorn with a 33 and 1/3rd inch barreled full stock in both flint and percussion ignition. 70 grains of 3 F black powder pushing a .530 patched round ball in this specific firearm is effective accuracy and penetration to 100 yards and sometimes beyond but my preference is to get as close as I can. My October harvest on Colorado pronghorn was at 15 yards. Am building a .60 caliber flinter with a 48" long swamped Getz barrel. Will be interesting to see how it shoots and whether the increased sighting radius will enhance accuracy using open sights and older eyes.

 

[longcruise]

The 800/1100 fpe concept isn't Toby's...he just uses it as do I because it is a good measuring stick..

Regardless of whose it is, it may be a measuring stick and to each his own stick. But, it's not my stick nor is it the stick of thousands of hunters who annually take big game with balls that do not measure up to the 800/1100 criteria. From a scientific viewpoint, the empirical evidence says it just ain't so. It falls into the category of "conventional wisdom". It became a settled opinion endorsed over and over. But, like many points of conventional wisdom, (certainly not all) they can just as easily be called "old wives tales".

So tell me, what does work?

The answer is for yourself to conclude. Which you have done. You wanted and needed an answer and you have found and accepted one. It's not acceptable to me and many others because we have seen it disproven over and over.

I don't believe that anybody has done any actual research that would establish a needed measure of energy to perform. If you think about it, organizing and conducting such a study would be nearly impossible. I suppose the FBI method could be employed; shoot a bunch of goats. Probably the best that can be done is simply anecdotal evidence and from a scientific standpoint that is not verifiable.

You obviously think more is required

because of your inability to kill an elk and deer outright or are you enamored with the "magical killing machine" 178 gr 50 cal round ball that puts out at best 600 ftlbs of energy at the muzzle. A round ball has less "point" than the pointed conical so it is a better killer?

Your mind reading skills are lacking! I don't think anything of the kind. Neither bullet or ball are able to assuredly kill any animal outright. My point is that neither is "magical". 800/1100 is not magical and neither is the RB. Thousands of RB kills every year say that they are adequate and totally defy the 800/1100 rule.

It's also worth noting that the concept of the "magical" round ball did not originate with RB hunters. It came from the inline manufacturing industry and was pasted on the round ball shooters. A handy marketing tool as it derided the use of the round ball AND those who use it. A convenient double whammy.

If none of the quoted measuring sticks work, do we just pull out random solutions from our nether regions?

What's the difference between pulling solutions out of ones nether regions and simply accepting a solution that someone else pulled out of their nether regions? I don't have an absolute solution. Just my own experience in determining what will work and that just happens to fly in the face of the FPE concepts.

Explain what works now that you have given us the myriad of what doesn't

I never said bullets don't work. I said that balls do work. Not by magic but simply that, apparently, (determined by my own observations) sending a ball of adequate size through the vitals of an animal disrupts vital functions and reduces blood pressure to the point that the animal expires.

Obviously in both the examples I cited the Maxi "worked". But, not so well as to convince me that they are a necessary component of hunting with a muzzle loader. The balls Ive used worked just as good and that despite their admitted lack of FPE.

 

[longcruise]

@beardedhorse Your post above came through as I was typing the above post. Not ignoring you, I'll answer your questions in another post a little later. Right now I'm being summoned by the better half.

If you would not mind, please identify yourself. Do so by PM if you would rather not do so publicly.

 

[tenngun]

@tenngun "There is no magic bullet. Ball is the bottom of the heap. And even massive wounds a deer bear or other animal can cover lots of ground before dying."

He is absolutely correct. But I will also add, some are better and some are even much better than others.

We have chosen a primitive weapon. There is lots better. An AR 15 type ugly as sin or a fine weatherby as easy on the eyes as our best ml.
I shoot mostly smoothiie now, so fifty yards is my limit. With a rifle and ball a hundred, but such shots just don’t happen where I hunt.
In the west boys and girls night see deer a few miles away then I can in a land ‘chocked with tress’, so might want to test that hundred yards and will take shots that I wouldn’t try.
We each have a comfort zone.
Even though we chose a primitive weapon that doesn’t me we can’t get the most out of what we got
Conical is a better projectile in the woods.
If it’s what you think you need to be ethical hunter, then that’s the end of the discussion
Ethics in the tall timber is a deal we make with our selves the game and whatever path of spirituality your on.
I would never try to discourage some one from doing what the inner self tells you is best
Because no mater what I think or any one else. You alone are the one who pulls the trigger

 

[longcruise]

@tenngun That's a good synipsis of where many of us come from on this topic.

 

[chorizo]

@longcruise Yeah, we best leave the goats out of this. It really didn't give the FBI much data other than when you shoot a goat it will die....eventually

@tenngun
"Ethics in the tall timber is a deal we make with our selves the game and whatever path of spirituality your on.
I would never try to discourage some one from doing what the inner self tells you is best
Because no mater what I think or any one else. You alone are the one who pulls the trigger"

Well said and I think we can all agree on that!

Thanks, Gentlemen!

 

[olskool]

it's like this, hit the spot, the game will not know the length of the barrel, the ball will not bounce off, and the game will die,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Zutt-man]

Without a chronograph, is there a way to test or know what the muzzle velocity of my gun would be? I’ve looked everywhere for ballistic charts and there’s so many specifics it’s hard to know. Maybe someone has tested a .58 Kibler before?

 

[chorizo]

Without a chronograph, is there a way to test or know what the muzzle velocity of my gun would be? I’ve looked everywhere for ballistic charts and there’s so many specifics it’s hard to know. Maybe someone has tested a .58 Kibler before?

Some powder companies publish charts you can approximate from but they don't give you barrel length or the test platform, there are a couple of muzzle loader handbooks put out by Sam Fadala that has the velocity he got from various loads in various guns

I earlier posted in this thread info on T7 and Pyrodex that Hodgdon put out for various calibers and bullets. Data on 58 cal is very limited.

But the only way for sure is invest in a chrono or shoot your gun at the various ranges and back determine the MV via calculations based upon observed drop for the bullet you are using.....Given the price of a chrono and the price and scarcity of powder and caps, a chrono is the attractive alternative

 

[mspaci1]

my wmc is my favorite

 

[Loyalist Dave]

my wmc is my favorite

What's a "wmc" please ?

LD

 

[chorizo]

What's a "wmc" please ?

LD

A Thompson Center White Mountain Carbine

 

[tenngun]

Without a chronograph, is there a way to test or know what the muzzle velocity of my gun would be? I’ve looked everywhere for ballistic charts and there’s so many specifics it’s hard to know. Maybe someone has tested a .58 Kibler before?

Lyman black powder ballistics is good. It’s about forty years old but math is math

 

[Zutt-man]

Some powder companies publish charts you can approximate from but they don't give you barrel length or the test platform, there are a couple of muzzle loader handbooks put out by Sam Fadala that has the velocity he got from various loads in various guns

I earlier posted in this thread info on T7 and Pyrodex that Hodgdon put out for various calibers and bullets. Data on 58 cal is very limited.

But the only way for sure is invest in a chrono or shoot your gun at the various ranges and back determine the MV via calculations based upon observed drop for the bullet you are using.....Given the price of a chrono and the price and scarcity of powder and caps, a chrono is the attractive alternative

Lyman black powder ballistics is good. It’s about forty years old but math is math

Much appreciated. I did find some data on FPS & FPE with the same barrel and rb, but not the grade of powder (data showed FF and I shoot FFF). Will say I had much less drop at 75 yds than I expected when I sighted it in

 

[chorizo]

Much appreciated. I did find some data on FPS & FPE with the same barrel and rb, but not the grade of powder (data showed FF and I shoot FFF). Will say I had much less drop at 75 yds than I expected when I sighted it in

A good thumbnail measure is about 10% more velocity using fff vice ff in the same volume with moderate loads......the heavier the load the less impact it has. (say 80 vs 100)

 

[Zutt-man]

A good thumbnail measure is about 10% more velocity using fff vice ff in the same volume with moderate loads......the heavier the load the less impact it has. (say 80 vs 100)

Could you elaborate on this? I get FFF builds more pressure, just don’t understand the thumbnail part