The end of black powder?

[paulvallandigham]

A lot of small gun shops are in strip malls. They simply cannot sell the powder because they cannot have a powder magazine set far enough away from residential neighbors.

If a local Gun club would build a powder magazine on its property, and work a "DEAL" with the gun shop owner, whereby he could buy and store powder at the club magazine, and go out to pick it up or arrange for members to get the club to deliver to the store for sale to other customers, both the store and the club will benefit. The store will refer new shooters to the club, while making money over and above the cost of the powder by marking it up for retail sale . The club members get a break by ordering powder as a group, at the lowest cost. Members will benefit from having a local gunshop owner who will either carry, or order for them other things they need or want, in the way of supplies, and the gunshop benefits from the referrals made by all the gun club members to friends and family to support the local gun store. Powder can be ordered and delivered to any club member, or other person either at the club or other location. It then would be transferred to the powder magazine.

Clubs can't "Sell " powder, but they can take orders from members, and their deposits, and then distribute the powder when it arrives. The club can buy more powder to hold in the magazine, to give away as shoot prizes( that is what my club did for years), and to fill orders from late-comers, who would rather have some of the old stock now, than wait for the delivery of a new order. NO one is going to break their backs trying to catch someone in a club providing BLACK Powder to members in an " Illegal sale", based on technical writings in a statute. What government wants is some control over how gets access and control of explosives, so they are not used for a wrong purpose. I know shotgun shooters who go through a couple of pounds of FFg powder every month, and some who shoot that in a week of practice. It doesn't take them long to go through a case of powder( 25lbs.) Others, casual or seasonal rifle shooters, may not go through a pound of BP in 10 years!

If you look at McKeal's chart that he made on powder prices, its still worth anyone's while to buy in as large a quantity as you can afford. And, when money is not so free, then going together with other shooters to place a combined order for a case or two saves everyone money.

 

[omarick1948]

I'm sitting back reading all this and it amaze's me that anybody would lay out hard earned money for a M/L rifle and fret to death and loose sleep over having to buy black powder in any quanity!

I guess I'm lucky, as out here on the Great Plains we can readily buy the real McCoy black powder and the synthetic stuff in several locations here. One thing that I can tell you that in over 35 years plus being a Traditional M/L'r, if a person would order it in bulk and you don't like it (and I really can't imagine why you won't), just take what you have left to the next shoot or a M/L club and offer it for sale! Bet ya it won't have ta come home with you! Just be discreat about it! JMHO

Rick

 

[Kentuckywindage]

its not illegal to GIVE powder to someone. Its illegal to SELL it to someone without the license.

 

[mykeal]

At the local gun shop I offered to buy them the powder magazine and license
[ tax ] to sell it. They said that they didn’t want the hassle.

If you're willing to buy the license and pay for the magazine why not just set up your own business?

I don't see the inconvenience of getting real black powder as the death knell of the sport. We're a niche sport, so having to deal with inconvenience just goes with the territory. We have tougher things to deal with than that.

As for buying powder and then selling it or giving it away: BATFE's trigger on whether or not you're in violation is the phrase, "being in the business of". If they perceive (nasty word, that) that you are "in the business of" providing real black powder, and you don't have a license to do so, they will violate you. That can include giving it away, because you might be simply providing an incentive for people to come to you as a source from which to buy powder later; business occasionally do provide such loss leader incentives. The key to staying out of trouble is to have an agreement in advance from a number of people to pay you for the powder when you get it, and then for you to not make any profit from the transaction.

It's ok for 10 people to each agree in advance to pay me my cost for some powder when it arrives, but it's not ok for me to buy the powder and then walk around offering to sell it to people who had no prior agreement.

 

its not illegal to GIVE powder to someone. Its illegal to SELL it to someone without the license.

You may want to re-read the ATF regs on distributing black powder. Many people quote the law, based on what they think it is.

"(n) "Distribute" means sell, issue, give, transfer, or otherwise dispose of."

 

[poordevil]

So , if you are at a shoot and run out of powder,and someone gives you some, OR offer to let someone shoot your gun, (by giving them powder in the loaded gun) you are breaking the law? OK :idunno:

 

[David W.]

I understand that Goex is trying, or has tried to declassify BP. Does anyone have any information on this?

 

So , if you are at a shoot and run out of powder,and someone gives you some, OR offer to let someone shoot your gun, (by giving them powder in the loaded gun) you are breaking the law? OK :idunno:

I'm just quoting the law. There's the letter and spirit of the law. I seriously doubt that the cops will arrest you for sharing powder. But, you know that. :wink:

 

[poordevil]

:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[ohio ramrod]

Our local club buys by the case and resells to members only. I assume it is legal since they have two lawyers in the club, and they are the ones who insist that it be resold only to members!This brings up the question "What is a member?" I buy by the case and split the case with my two sons and my nephew and his three sons. So I assume since we are all members of a family we are legal. If one reads some of the laws that have been passed years ago and never revoked you will realise that we all are breaking many laws every day.

 

[mykeal]

I think it would be fairly simple and entirely believable to state under oath that bona fide (as in dues paying, entered on a register) members of a club, or members of an immediate family, were in agreement in advance to participate in paying for and receiving the powder, which is the BATFE test for not being in the business of selling powder.

I think that if you were walking around a rendezvous or reenactment site offering to give away a pound of powder along with your name and number that you would not meet the BATFE test and could expect to be the subject of a complaint with a significant likelihood of successful prosecution.

If your gift of powder did not include a means to contact you later, that likelihood would diminish considerably; I can't say whether the complaint would still be issued.

Allowing someone else to shoot your gun would clearly not be cause for complaint.

 

[PreglerD]

Here in Germany bp can be bought all over the country. Nearly any gunshop is able to get and sell it to the customers. In my area of southern bavaria I have 2 dealers within 30km, and 2 mor within 60 km. There I can get all kinds of bp, subs and pellets. In Germany you need a licence for bp. Giving it to others without a licence is legal when it is at a shooting range and loaded and fired under the eyes of the licence owner. While the trad. single shot ML are free to get when you are 18 ML shooting is a blast here in Germany compared with getting modern smokeless cartridge guns.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[fort fireman]

Just sell a flint to someone for 15 bucks and throw in a free pound of Bp with it. :grin:

 

I'm not an attorney, but I'd bet that if you and some friends go in on a case of powder, whoever collects the money can be considered to have sold the powder to the others - IF the law wants to make an example of you.

Buying powder from a distributor, then "taking money from others" (friends) for said powder, "selling". :wink:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I'm not an attorney, but I'd bet that if you and some friends go in on a case of powder, whoever collects the money can be considered to have sold the powder to the others - IF the law wants to make an example of you.

Buying powder from a distributor, then "taking money from others" (friends) for said powder, "selling". :wink:

The only difference in splitting a case with your friends and selling to a stranger, is the fact that your friends agreed to buy the powder in advance of you ordering it, and the stranger agreed to buy it after you received it. :wink:

 

[redwing]

I have a Goex Dist. 7 miles from me. Getting powder is not a problem. That said you can order powder and have it on your door step in 48 hrs. Some of the dealers even pay the $25.00 HASMAT chg. I don't think black powder will go out production very soon. :shake:

 

[Norinco]

What if you order 25 lb's of black powder and you have it addressed to you and your friends? Then it belongs to all of you.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

How about someone putting a can of powder down onto the blanket at a Blanket Shoot?

These lawyers that make and interpret these laws in a vague sense, are doing so in an attempt to be deliberately vague :shake: . That's so when someone gets raided (sometimes even a good guy is snared on a technicality) and the news reports a cache of weapons, they can say that the reason he had a case of black was that he had "intent" to distribute it! It's so much :bull:

I guess when it all boils down you have to know who you're doing a favor for when a group or club agrees to buy in bulk.

Dave

 

[mykeal]

I'm not an attorney, but I'd bet that if you and some friends go in on a case of powder, whoever collects the money can be considered to have sold the powder to the others - IF the law wants to make an example of you.

Buying powder from a distributor, then "taking money from others" (friends) for said powder, "selling". :wink:

You'd lose the bet.

 

[squirrellluck]

Ok I will fix my profile in a minute. I am in N. Louisiana so Jersey is a ways. I have not given up on getting real bp I have only been looking for a month. I am still checking with shooters and hunters after contacting all retailers in N. Louisiana. So far I have not found a ml shooting club or any other trad. shooters. Seems the laws in this state, though I have no issue with them, have made trad. muzzleloaders less appealing. Our primitive season allows inlines,45-70s, scopes... The best prospect I have so far is a sass shoot coming up. I will be there checking with the shooters and looking for some tell tale smoke :grin: :grin: My only point is unless you are willing to pony up for a large amount of powder it can be an adventure. Until then I will use pyrodex and make sorta smoke :idunno: