The flintlock is a made in India. Identify malfunctions and their elimination

[Andrey22]

I have tried several times to buy flintlocks in India. They looked good in the photos on the seller's website and their price is only $90. Within 5 years I have bought 3 different castles. And each time their quality was terrible. Negotiations with the seller were unsuccessful. I want to show one of these locks and how I renovated it.

 

[Andrey22]

This flintlock not throwing sparks. I took apart the flintlock and examined it carefully. The following faults and shortcomings were identified

1. The frizzen does not produce sparks - the steel is of poor quality, there is little carbon in it.
2. The safety descent protrudes too far forward and when the trigger is released from the combat platoon, the sear rests against the safety platoon - it is impossible to descend from the combat platoon.
3. The pan is not even.
4. Large gap between frizzen and pan.
5. Traces of files on the surface of the lock
6. Corrosion on some parts of the castle.
7. The top jaw screw has an irregular shape, the screw has no slots for the screwdriver and hole.
8. The screws are not made correctly and roughly.
9. There is no second threaded hole for the screw fastening the lock to the stock.

 

[Andrey22]

First I updated all the threads on the plate and made new small screws.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Probably just a collaberation of parts made to look like a gun. More than likely these things were meant to hang on a wall.

In my opinion, everything made in India is junk. You cant expect much for $90. Its not a value if you've got to do a ton of work to, and take an inordinant amount of time to get something working that should work from the get go.

You couldnt pay me to own any gun made in India.

India today is the Made in Taiwan of yesteryear. JUNK.

 

[Andrey22]

Yes you are right. I have been buying flintlock locks in the USA from Jim Chambers for many years. Flintlock, and flintlock kits are always of good quality. In addition, both Jim and his daughter Barbie are always ready to help the buyer.

The seller in India always wrote that his locks are handmade and they are of good quality and fit for flintlock weapons. He wrote every time that the next purchase would not disappoint me.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Just a perfect example of “you get what you pay for”.

 

[Smokin' Joe]

You know, I agree with everything said regarding the Indian experience. The funny thing is, it is akin to working on many originals of the preindustrial era, semi to very poor fit, unknown metals, hand finished parts with the added benefit of modern tools... nothing interchangable. The only [generally] real difference between Indian and originals are the pan, frizzen alignment (much better on originals) and hardness of various parts... searching for replacement parts is a headache so you are often left with making your own. Example, an 1824d M1816 Harpers Ferry lock I am restoring. The frizzen, mainspring screws and mainspring pin hole were drilled and threaded slightly at an angle... the screw threads are ever so slightly off... but only in that area... I was involved in restoring/stablizing a 1756 pattern Bess that, thank goodness did not require much of an overhaul, phew hand threaded screws, the barrel shot off to the left and the tang to the right, same with a fussil (French parts)... and '68 Charleville the thing looked great put together, take her apart, wow! The long thin stock was a twisted mess until you put her together. Ive seen barrel bands of every description imaginable (French/US1795s)... I'm not going into all the stocking variations... though better wood to metal fit on originals... generally...

It just seems ironic that the poor quality Indian arms and the flint era originals have so much in common...

 

[gbush]

Speaking of flintlocks made in India. Has anyone had experience with the flintlocks offered for sale by Access Heritage in Ottawa. They have some really nice looking ones for $500 to $600 dollars each. I called them up and ask where their flintlocks were made, they told me in Asia.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Andrey,
Good luck. I've also worked over quite a few India-made locks and decided they just are not worth the time and effort. Contrary to the previous comment by SJ above, the original musket locks were well made and had to pass inspection. I eventually will work over an India-made lock from a gun marketed as a "Ketland Officer's fusil". The original gun it is loosely based on was actually a New England militia musket. The lock is so bad that the shoulder on the post of the tumbler does not extend above the lock plate so the flint cock tightens against the plate when the tumbler screw is installed. The tumbler post is not even fully round. Here is some India-made junk for you:

In the photos below the top lock is from a well used and abused Pedersoli Bess, the middle lock is an exact copy of a British pattern 1756 carbine lock, the bottom is the India-made Ketland.

British ordnance inspectors would have sent the modern India-made locks back for scrap.

dave

 

[toot]

as JOHN ARBUCKLE FAMOUS COFFEE MERCHANT USED TOO SAY-- YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!

 

[Andrey22]

Thanks everyone!
Continued work - leveled the surface of the pan.

 

[Sidney Smith]

It seems your determined to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. All I can say is good luck.

 

[nagantino]

Did you get it to work.?

 

[Andrey22]

The flintlock is not working yet.
I tried to temper the frizzen, but still there is no spark.
I asked a friend to carburize the steel to increase the carbon content of the frizzen.
If he fails, i will have to make a new frizzen.

At the tumbler, I shortened the safety ledge.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Andrey,
Case hardening should work despite whatever steel the frizzen is made from. I recommend carburizing with a pack of bone and wood charcoal at 800-820 degrees C for at least 2 hours, preferably 3. Then, not knowing the steel alloy, it might be best to temper it for 1 hour at 195 degrees C.

dave

 

[Sidney Smith]

I believe even if this person gets the gun to function, it's going to function erratically, and will not be long lasting. It will reveal another flaw at some point, then another, and so on.

It's like attempting to run a lawn mower on old stale gas. Yeah it might run, but it's gonna run badly, and will eventually quit.

 

[toot]

The flintlock is not working yet.
I tried to temper the frizzen, but still there is no spark.
I asked a friend to carburize the steel to increase the carbon content of the frizzen.
If he fails, i will have to make a new frizzen.

At the tumbler, I shortened the safety ledge.

have you given a thought to using, KASENITE? now called CHERY RED/ or something? I have a pint can of KASENITE that will last into the next century, plus another one. when I got it 24 yrs ago that is as small as you could get! but it soure does work. any one used it?

 

[Andrey22]

I believe even if this person gets the gun to function, it's going to function erratically, and will not be long lasting. It will reveal another flaw at some point, then another, and so on.
It's like attempting to run a lawn mower on old stale gas. Yeah it might run, but it's gonna run badly, and will eventually quit.

I will try. I have experience in restoring flintlocks.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...elet-repair-turned-into-a-new-project.118517/

 

[Andrey22]

Hi Andrey,
Case hardening should work despite whatever steel the frizzen is made from. I recommend carburizing with a pack of bone and wood charcoal at 800-820 degrees C for at least 2 hours, preferably 3. Then, not knowing the steel alloy, it might be best to temper it for 1 hour at 195 degrees C.

Yes, I read in an old book about this method.

 

[Andrey22]

have you given a thought to using, KASENITE? now called CHERY RED/ or something? I have a pint can of KASENITE that will last into the next century, plus another one. when I got it 24 yrs ago that is as small as you could get! but it soure does work. any one used it?

Looks like my friend found another way.