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The India-made Untouchables

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TNGhost said:
Perhaps trolling, perhaps making the point that Indian muzzleloaders are as safe as any other, for any given operator.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Perhaps I was being unfair to nactorman, if so, my apologies. There is no doubt though that the post was of no value to the subject at hand since it was an original rifle musket and not a reproduction of any type, Indian or Italian or whatever. It does however show that immense care is required, even by an experienced shooter, especially if that shooter has smokeless powder in his possession. Concentration on the task at hand is absolutely essential. Beyond that, it is irrelevant.
 
satx78247 said:
The so-called BULK SHOTGUN POWDER is my GUESS, as it burns "less than cleanly" than most other "modern powders" & is WRONGLY thought by some people to be acceptable/"reasonably safe in small amounts" in ML firearms.

yours, satx

Well said. Modern high smokeless powders are not safe in any muzzle loader despite what the makers of "muzzle loaders" of a here unmentionable type say.
 
hawkeye2 said:
Va.Manuf.06 thanks for posting that. I had just gotten in from a 9.5 hour overnight and a trip to the vet's with my puppy so I am not moving too fast right now and you were quicker on the draw. Here is a link to another post on the same subject:
http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php/9788-Gun-Blowing-up-on-the-line

The average loads used by competitors are 35 to 50 grains of 2f. By volume that would be a lot of smokeless!

Glad to do it, and you are right, that would be a lot of smokeless. I am glad that no one was seriously hurt.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes, trolling. Obviously, this topic has been :dead:

The weapon in the photos I posted are of the rifle that exploded this weekend at the NSSA event. (Which was gov't proofed, by the way, and constructed with all the expertise attributed to historical weapons makers in this thread.)

Basically, I find it humorous how when there is an accident with an original, Italian, or custom American piece that the first response by certain individuals is to blame the shooter. As in this case:


Armisport (Chiappa) Italian Enfield

Or in the case of the Chiappa (Italian) 1842 Musket that exploded a couple of years ago.

Yet when the same things happen with an Indian piece (and there are really only a handful of documented cases), many of the same folks rush to blame the weapon - often in spite of actual evidence to the contrary. That is certainly the case in regards to the article which is the subject of this thread.

The article as it exists presently, is a modified version of the original. The original article contained so many complete inventions of "fact" ( :bull: ) that when challenged about them, the author was forced to essentially admit he had fabricated them by altering his article. Even after the alterations, the author continues to omit important and relevant details on the incidents which demonstrate that they were the result of operator error. He writes, "We do not know all the circumstances surrounding these burst barrels," when, in fact, he has been informed of the circumstances and even provided copies of the forensic evidence! :doh:

FULL DISCLOSURE: As some might have guessed from my screen name, I am the owner and operator of Veteran Arms LLC, so this subject is of interest and is followed very closely by me. I lurk on this board, but rarely speak up.

I can tell you unequivocally, that no Veteran Arms weapon has ever suffered a failure either in proofing (now that is a misunderstood and contentious subject :stir: ) or in actual service...ever...period.

I can also tell you that I see the same individuals, some with competing pecuniary interests in the Italian and custom gun markets, go from forum to forum essentially spreading misinformation like that contained in the cited article because it advances their own interests. That makes it tough for hobbyists to decipher truth from fiction.

One final note, before I get back to lurking. Lumping all "Indian guns" into one group is neither helpful to the consumer nor does it accurately reflect the reality of the market. There are at least a half a dozen manufacturing companies involved. Their products vary in many important ways. The same as any number of similar American products might. When one starts a statement with, "Indian guns..." all that folks informed on the subject hear is :yakyak:

Anyway, that's :2
 
I can tell you unequivocally, that no Veteran Arms weapon has ever suffered a failure either in proofing (now that is a misunderstood and contentious subject ) or in actual service...ever...period.

I believe it is impossible for you to know that for a fact. Unless you track every VA firearm ever sold on a regular basis, there may be some which failed but you never received a report of the incident. However, if you lurk here, you know my gripe with India made anything is not quality or safety.
 
Maybe if you quit "lurking" you would be taken more seriously, I sure don't, and also I would like to know how in the world are we supposed to know your the Owner Operator of Veteran Arms with a screen name of nactorman?? shouldn't your screen name be OO-V-Arms or something along those lines? just wondering. :idunno:
 
As I've said elsewhere on this site:
Some Indian/Asian-made firearms are GREAT.
(and equivalent to the BEST of British/European make - Those weapons are generally "made to order on private commission" by individual gunsmiths & are $$$$$$.)
SOME are "just OK quality" & "of moderate price"
and
Some is just plain "junque" at any price.
(That's that "fancy French trash".)

Like purchasing most everything else, a potential buyer should carefully examine their intended firearm & expect to pay a fair price.

just my OPINION, satx
 
Well that just took this off the rails for no reason...

Back to the germane aspects of the topic I started Rifleman, I find it ironic that you are challenging Nactorman's understanding of the reliablity of the products he has sold.

Whereas you are correct in that he may not know what he doesn't know, as unlikely as it would be that someone WOULDN'T bring a catastrophic failure of his merchandise to his attention (and to everyone else's in North America for that matter), you continue to know what you cannot know and give voice to your baseless insistance that India guns are made by child slave labor. You and I have even PM'd on this, and I wouldn't joke around about how pleased I am to benefit from the low cost savings if I really thought there was any liklihood of your accusations. Probably...

But seriously, at this point your injection of that preoccupying conjecture may be odder than any of mine, and we're talkin' grits!
 
FIRST, I've NEVER pm'ed you on any subject & likely will NOT in this earthly life.
(I just looked through all 109 archived PMs to assure that I hadn't "slipped up" & see NONE either to/from you.)

Also your claim in your first sentence above is also PATENTLY FALSE, as I said NOTHING specific about his firearms. - I made only a general comment about Indian/Asian-made firearms.

Could it be that you are confusing me with another member??
OR
Perhaps you are just simply "confused in general"??
(I have to wonder about anyone who won't eat grits. :rotf: )

yours, satx
 
satx78247 said:
FIRST, I've NEVER pm'ed you on any subject & likely will NOT in this earthly life.
(I just looked through all 109 archived PMs to assure that I hadn't "slipped up" & see NONE either to/from you.)

Also your claim in your first sentence above is also PATENTLY FALSE, as I said NOTHING specific about his firearms. - I made only a general comment about Indian/Asian-made firearms.

Could it be that you are confusing me with another member??
OR
Perhaps you are just simply "confused in general"??
(I have to wonder about anyone who won't eat grits. :rotf: )

yours, satx


Yes, I could be confused...

...or it could be that you're not "Rifleman," whom I addressed, and that for three detailed paragraphs, and your own research, you couldn't figure out I wasn't actually responding to you but to a gentleman who posted before you.

:shake:
 
armakiller said:
Maybe if you quit "lurking" you would be taken more seriously, I sure don't...

Despite the fact that these soft, yellow, pistol shaped fruits are frequently used as weapons, even in robberies and stick-ups, they are imported as non-firearms and should never be fired. Furthermore, there are, as yet, no unified proofing standards for these pistols and thus no one can be assured of their safety. Those companies engaged in their importation and sale should be ashamed.



In addition to having been produced in a non-English speaking countries where there is uncertain quality control and where they are harvested in almost slave-like conditions, these fruits are inherently dangerous. Every year scores of unsuspecting users slip and fall or are otherwise maimed and have to go to the hospital. This is a serious issue that must be addressed today! Do your part and spread the word about these dangerous devices.


My Goodness! Just look how that one just opened up upon detonation. It must surely be a miracle that no one was killed or maimed.




Will the human carnage never cease? What are you waiting for? Ban these now!
 
The price of India made imports makes them very attractive along with the variety of models. I have for a long time been “sitting on the fence” about getting one. Every time discussion of them comes up, I am glued to the computer screen. I like verifiable evidence and data for making decisions.
Sadly! To date I am still “on the fence” and I suspect I am not the only one.
I am not a historian but if my poor memory serves me well both the Revolutionary War and the Civil War were fought using some import weapons.
:2
 
Well since nactorman came clean I guess I am going to have to as well. My interest in this thread has been totally self serving in that there are a number of reproduction muzzleloader styles I would like to own, despite my limited economic means.

The availability of more affordable represetatives is a good thing in my estimation, for all of us. Given the duress our sport, along with all shooting sports, is under, anything that'll bring more folks in, is a good thing. The nice thing about threads like this is they tend out the guys who are spreading disinformation, for their own benefit, to the detriment of others and the sport in general.

As far as nactorman goes, I have no association with him. Don't know the man. Wouldn't recognize him if I met him on the street, and it wasn't his shop I alluded to being in earlier in this thread(that was another oft mentioned vendor here). I've never done business with nactorman that I know of. I do however, have the sudden urge to order an Indian muzzleloader from him now.
 
Only build me own, no ore third world production guns for me. The last one I had spent more time broke, than working

In the past you bought a quality rifle that would last you a life time, and you could depend your life on it.

Now folks just buy whats cheap, fore their lives are not worth the extra bucks
 
I am of the opinion that, at best, the India-made guns need inspection and tuning as the locks are too "rough" when they get here. I know a couple of companies make a point of tuning them before they go out. That is a requirement for reasonable usefulness and reliance.

I don't really know why the Indians can't, or don't, get this done. OK, it's the value-add of the distributor here and maybe how they earn some money.

Yeah, I pass up on India-made due to (lack of) quality but have not quite managed to avoid it altogether. The main thing I resent these days is any distributor selling their guns on auction sites to the unsuspecting by not disclosing where they are made. Oh, they've denied that in the past but they were not telling the truth. And even if they disclose it today, saying things like "it is referenced" on their site, which has also been a lie, it is buried so deep and in such small print there it is still a charade at best. And their statements in the past that it's the buyers' responsibilty to uncover what is being hidden is unacceptable. They clearly do not want the average person to have all the information to make an informed decision and this is reprehensible.
 
Nactorman, thank you for explaining yourself, if you had done so with your initial post it probably would have shortened this thread considerably and avoided what you call :dead:

I do have a couple of quick questions, they are in blue below.

nactorman said:
Yes, trolling. Obviously, this topic has been :dead:

nactorman said:
The weapon in the photos I posted are of the rifle that exploded this weekend at the NSSA event. (Which was gov't proofed, by the way, and constructed with all the expertise attributed to historical weapons makers in this thread.)

Can you tell us the evidence of a lack of government proofing of the original rifle musket? If it was not proofed it would be very unusual so I do have to question your statement. Were you there and able to examine it personally? If not, are you relying on the word of someone else?

Basically, I find it humorous how when there is an accident with an original, Italian, or custom American piece that the first response by certain individuals is to blame the shooter.

So there was insufficient evidence in this case of the shooter being responsible? There may well be evidence that there are original, Italian and American made modern pieces that fail simply because of poor construction or improper barrel material, I am not saying that there are not, but we rarely hear about them. I can also think of at least one Indian-made Brown Bess that failed that the shooter has been blamed for by the evidence presented. People do make mistakes and by the nature of the failure in the case of the original that you illustrated I can see little else than shooter error - the use of smokeless powder - that could have caused a failure of this nature. It was shattered under very high pressure. The same may be true for the reproduction M1842 that you also illustrate.

I do have to say I enjoyed your banana story though....
:wink:
 
Isn't Nactorman making the point that the gun WAS gov't proofed (and still burst)? Am I misreading that!?
 

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