The Lead Ring

[TheBaldYankee]

Hi All,

My Civil War unit is doing a drill/tactical weekend in April. One of the planned activities is a company Live fire.

I've heard alot about the dreaded lead ring that can break off of the minie ball, or form from small amounts of melted lead, thus causing a hazard when firing blanks at a reenactment. Has this been an issue for anyone here? Is there truth to this? I've only live fired my Springfield once, with no issues.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

A simple inspection with a Bore Light will show you what ever is in the bore. Firing only one Minnie, I'd say that the rifle isn't even broken-in yet, and not to worry about such things!

Dave

 

[Jerry Coffee]

A lead ring can break off the botton of the skirt of a minie and remain in the bore. The type minie being fired usually determines if a lead ring will break off and remain in the bore. The minie designed for the Parker Hale P53 Enfield rifle musket (Lyman 575213-new style/510 gr.)from Dixie Gun Works (BU0901) will reduce the likelyhood of a lead ring being left behind in the bore. That minie is .576" to .577" OD and has 3 shallow grease grooves which makes for a thicker skirt wall and less of a groove that would allow a lead ring to break off. The new style minie is .000" to 001" undersize for the P-H .577" caliber P53 Enfield rifle musket and is somewhat more difficult to load, requiring three strokes of the rod rather than two. It was specifically designed to be fired in the Parker Hale P53 Enfield rifle musket with a .577" bore and high strength cold forged barrel.

The Confederate Gardner style minie (Lyman 577611 mold) minie also reduces the likelyhood of a lead ring being left in the bore. That minie has a skirt that is a 2-ring design and the skirt is .010" thicker than the skirt found on the Lyman 575213-OS minie, by having a smaller cavity. The Gardner style minie is .575" OD and shoots best with a heavier BP load, or 60 gr. 3f. If you are using an Armisport or Enfield for live firing, I would not fire the 575213-NS/510 gr. or 577611/530 gr. Confederate Gardner style minies because they require 60 gr. 3f BP or 70 gr. 2f BP to get them out of the barrel and down range with any accuracy.

Stick to the Lyman 575213-OS/460 gr. minie with 50 gr. 3f BP in an Armisport and Euroarms P53 Enfield rifle musket. I use Moyers Cast Bullets for target practice and they cost $7.50 for a nice little box of 25 minies. I have noticed Moyer's Cast Bullets now has a 2-month waiting period to fill cast lead minie orders due the demand for them and the labor intensive casting process. (www.moyerscastbullets.com ) They told me that most of their .575" OD minies for the .577" and .58 Cal. rifle muskets go to Texas.

A lead ring is more likely to be left in the bore after firing traditional .577" caliber Enfield rifle musket with a .575" OD/460 gr. minie (Lyman 575213-OS Old Style). Since those minies are undersize and if you use over 50 gr. 3f BP load, it can can blow off a lead ring, especially when the minie leaves the muzzle. To avoid that, reduce the 3f BP load from 50 gr. to 40 gr. or use 50 gr. 2f BP but you may sacrifice range and accuracy. But be advised, 3f BP burns hotter and fouls less than 2f BP.

It may be an good option to purchase a India P53 Enfield for $350 and use it just for reenactment events and use your ArmiSport, Parker Hale or Euro Arms P53 Enfield for live firing only. The India made P53 Enfield should never be used for live firing but they can easily tolerate up to 50 gr. 3f or 60 gr. 2f blanks. Many sutlers sell the India rifle muskets just for reenactors. I visited Frazer Brothers store in Dallas I noticed they had an India P53 Enfield replica there but they are not in their on-line catalog at this time. It looked nice enough to please your NCO, mainly because it is safer to use.( www.frazerbrothers.com )

 

[jdstrang]

There seems to be a consensus among those who both re-enact and live-fire CW guns that the same gun (or at least, barrel) should not be used for both activities.

The ring in question usually results from poorly cast minies. It is not a common occurrence, but it does happen. The best way to avoid it is to not live-fire a re-enacting firearm. (Or give up re-enacting and switch to all-live-fire skirmishing, which is big around Cleveland, for your CW jollies, but that's a whole different topic!)

If you have any question/doubt, then have your unit gunsmith pull the breech plug and eyeball the bolster area. Any such ring would be easily seen from the breech end.

 

[RedFeather]

Now I'm going to have to dig out my .58 mould which I bought in '73. It's a 575213-OS but I swear I thought it was 505 grains. Been thinking about the 460 to reduce recoil a mite. Maybe I've been shooting that all along, or did Lyman change the specs???

 

[J.D.]

There seems to be a consensus among those who both re-enact and live-fire CW guns that the same gun (or at least, barrel) should not be used for both activities.

This seems more than a little extreme. Wouldn't any lead ring left in a bore be found during cleaning?
Or, don't you WONA boys clean those guns?

I have heard horror stories of WONA reenactors failing to clean their guns because of simple ignorance; they didn't think they needed to. IS this so common that different barrels are thought to be necessary for live fire and reenacting? Amazing. :barf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The 575-213OS throws a 460 grain Minie in pure lead. The 575-213 makes a 510 grain Minie and the 575-213 PH makes a 566 grain Minie. I use a 575-213 and the actual weight of the Minie is 560 grains, so they are fairly close to the advertised weights.

 

[Jerry Coffee]

The Lyman 575213 (new style) minie weighs 510 gr., is 1.070" long and has shallow grease grooves. I thought this minie was for the Parker Hale rifle musket. I have no 575213-PH minies and I understand those are the same or .001" undersize as the Parker-Hale .577" rifle musket's bore and are therefore more difficult to load.

The 575213-OS weighs 460 gr., is 0.950" long and is obviously less massive. I have not weighed the precast minies personally. I obtained the weights from what I read from the supplier's information.

Those are likely nominal weights and could be 5 gr. difference either way.

 

[Leatherbark]

Take the big end of your ramrod and throw it down the bore..........If it bounces and makes a ringing sound then maybe there aint no lead ring left in there........Seems like re-enactors have to do this occasionally if they fire the muskets with lead...................Bob

 

[bob308]

yes jd a good cleaning would solve the problem. i have been shooting minis for years and never even heard of the lead ring problem. but then i always clean my rifles when i am done.

 

[Jerry Coffee]

I have never had a minie shed a ring in the bore, at least I never have found evidence of one when I clean the rifle.

However, I think a heavy powder load can blow off a lead ring when the minie leaves the muzzle. I can tell that by the loss of accuracy when using the 575213-OS minies with 65 gr. 3f BP. That is the heaviest 3f powder load I have shot. I have found that the 575213-OS minies shoot more accurately with 50 gr. 3F BP. which is equal to 65 gr. 2f BP which was the original load used during the civil war.

I have found that the massive 577611, 530 gr., Confederate Gardner style minie needs 55 to 60 gr. 3F BP or 70 gr. 2f BP to fly right. They don't appear to shed a ring when they leave the muzzle.

 

[RedFeather]

I've come across some really sad musket bores in shops and, when I asked about the gun, it was usually from a re-enactor. Some are knowledgable while others kind of leave me shaking my head. One re-enactor told me that another had blown off several fingers when a barrel burst on an old gun he was shooting. Put the blame squarely on the gun. My guess was an overload coupled with an obstruction.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

At the risk of being slightly redundant: a bore light will identify ANY problems with the bore. Then a good cleaning will get rid of any left-overs! Then load it up and shoot it, as it's not even broken-in yet!

Dave

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The 575-213PH mold produces a .575 Minie. That is what the the 575 portion of the 575-213PH designation indicates. The Parker-Hale Enfields do not use a bore size Minie--they use a slightly undersized one that expands into the rifling when fired. Just like the various Springfield rifle-muskets and pretty much any rifle-musket uses.

 

[TheBaldYankee]

Thanks for all the great replies. I need to clear one thing up...

When I said I live fired it once, I fired about 9 live rounds. I still have 16 .575 minies left from a bag of 25. Maybe that means it's still not broken in.

I'm very careful about keeping my musket clean. I'm a working class guy who paid $400 for this thing! I intent to take good care of it. My ram rod pings every time! I have seen guys removed from line at events because their weapons are so dirty. I just shake my head.

So, in the event of a lead ring forming is there a special trick to getting it out? Is a good cleaning all it takes? Can you take the breech plug off of these Italian repros? It's an Armi Sport 1861 Springfield BTW.

 

[Jerry Coffee]

You probably have never blown a lead ring in the barrel. I think the reenactors are overly cautious but for good reasons, especially liability issues. I suggested using a cotton ball to hold the powder load in the musket during reenactment blank firing and that idea was immediately dismissed as unsafe...what can be unsafe about a cotton ball projectile!

BTW, I have confused the 575213, 510 gr. (new style) minie with the 575213-PH, 560 gr. minie. I believe both are the same. I miked the 575213-PH minies and they are indeed .575" OD. There is no such minie as the Lyman 575213 "new style" minie.

The 577611 (Gardner) minie is .577" OD, 530 gr. and is intended to be used with heavier powder loads, up to 60 or 70 gr. 3f BP. Personally, I would never use that load in anything but a Parker-Hale P53 Enfield with a cold forged barrel or a custom made barrel, just to be safe. A tight fitting minie such as the Gardner style with the heavier powder load that is required to get that tight minie out of the bore and down range needs stronger barrel than the ArmiSport and EuroArms barrels. The 2-ring Gardner style minies made from the Lyman 577611 mold are practical only for deer or elk hunting and their thick skirt does not obturate (expand) as the other minies because it does not need to since it is .577" OD to start with. That is a tight fit in a .577" bore and grips the rifling as is.

 

[Coot]

Please read the post on Enfield replicas.

How are you going to load from the muzzle under field conditions a round with zero clearance? What happens when fouling reduces that clearance to less than zero? How are you going to prevent the gases from blowing past the round (defeating the purpose of a heavier load) if there is no patching or expanded skirt to fill the groves? Just how much (or how little) spin can you get from a round that just skims over the rifling without having a means (skirt or patch) to engage the rifling?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A .577 Minie is meant for use in rifle-muskets like the Springfields with .58 caliber bores. A 70 grain charge is easily contained in a modern copy behind a heavy Mini--I have fired such loads many times. The .577 Minie is not meant for use in the Enfield.

 

[Jerry Coffee]

Quoting Bill Roberts in an article in "Long Range Muzzle Loader":

"If a bore is cleaned after each shot, bullets of .001" oversize may be loaded. The most suitable size, however, is a bullet that is bore diameter or .001" undersize."

Minies that are too loose in the bore can shift off the powder charge and down towards the muzzle if you carry the rifle musket in a slight barrel-down position. Unless the bullet is fully seated on the powder, a air space may result - and that could mean a bulged or split barrel. When hunting, it is a good idea to stop frequently and use your ramrod to reseat the conical.

I am certainly never going to load a minie that is .001" oversize, bore size or even .001" undersize. I am happy with and will continue to use the 575213-Old Style with 50 gr. 3f BP lubed with SPG in my Armi Sport P53 Enfield. That minie loads easy and shoots satisfactorily and I don't have to clean the bore between shots.

 

[Zonie]

"The .577 Minie is not meant for use in the Enfield. "

Perhaps it is true with .577 Minie' bullets however Lyman makes a Minie' bullet mold specifically for the Parker Hale Enfield. They even go so far as to call it a "Parker Hale".

Parker Hale of course used to make the most accurate reproduction of the Enfield available in the 2 band, 3 band and Musketoon going so far as to use the original inspection gages as guides to building their own gages.
Although the newly made Parker Hale's from Italy may not be quite up to the standards of the originals there can be no doubt that these guns are still the best examples of the Enfields available.

The bullet cast with these Lyman dies is a 566 grain .575 diameter with a rather thick skirted (.060), shallow pocket (.220) in the rear.
The Lyman part number for this mold is 2650213 and it's referred to as 575213PH. The "PH" is for Parker Hale.