Thread fork, was Idaho's Definition

[ktw]

In the "Idaho's Definition" thread Claude writes:

> The topic is... Getting the "Traditional/Primitive"
> (WHATEVER) season back to what it was prior to the
> widespread use of the in-line.

I'm fairly new to muzzleloading. When I decided to pick it up I chose to shoot patched roundball and picked up a GPR as a starter rifle. I liked that so much that I ordered a TVM flintlock.

I don't shoot in a club. I can think of nine friends/associates who also hunt the muzzleloader season. Their rifles would consist of a Lyman Deerstalker, a Lyman Trade rifle, one badly abused CVA caplock and 6 scoped inlines. All nine of them shoot conicals/sabots.

Maybe I just don't know what the muzzleloader season _was_ back in the day before inlines, but I'm having a hard time working up any rightous indignation over the fact that someone else has chosen a different muzzleloading rifle than I have. I fail to see how their choices take anything away from my traditional PRB experience.

I'm still not clear on the reason some of us feel a need for a special traditional muzzleloader season that exludes the inlines. As far as I can tell I already have the opportunity to hunt with my roundball flintlock/caplock for 15 days (MI rifle season) + 9 days (MI/UP muzzleloading season).

I'm all for additional deer hunting days but I don't need them bad enough to make it worth alienating many of the people I hunt/associate with.

-ktw

 

[tg]

"
I'm still not clear on the reason some of us feel a need for a special traditional muzzleloader season that exludes the inlines'

Basicly it is the fact the inline are more closely related to moden centefire guns and getting more so all the time, and it is not the type of weapon that the seasons were intended for, the ML seasons were meant to be for less efficient technology and the modern guns have come close to the ballistics and sighting capabilites of modern centerfires, the fact that they load from the front is only a small part of the overall picture.

 

[wolf]

I've been following this and stayed out of it, but...

Nothing personal, but why get involved in this?

Maybe I just don't know what the muzzleloader season _was_ back in the day before inlines, but I'm having a hard time working up any rightous indignation over the fact that someone else has chosen a different muzzleloading rifle than I have.

No one is asking you to "work up" anything. You may choose to stay out of the debate altogether as that is your right. Don't worry about it of it doesn't interest you.

I'm still not clear on the reason some of us feel a need for a special traditional muzzleloader season that exludes the inlines.

"us"? Obviously not you.

You answered your own question. They aren't, to use your words, "traditional muzzleloaders".

Sometimes, if you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer.

 

ktw, those are reasonable comments and questions--especially in the light of all the venom spewed forth on this topic already. Most of us 'traditionalists' simply look at the situation from the opposite way of thinking from most of the inliners--not saying we're right, they're wrong, just opposite views. I doubt we'll see a compromise, it is too polarized. Most traditionalists seem to have started out with a love of the old time guns and maybe a love of the history of the early times they represent. Most of the inliners seem to have come into this mainly to extend their hunting season and with a desire to approximate the ballistics of their centerfire guns. Traditionalists rarely talk ballistics (though our modern minds cannot divorce those ideas completely)and the old timers never did. We want to hunt in the old way, to try to rediscover what our ancestors did and felt, not just extend our season. Most states ML/primitive seasons were originally set up with that in mind. Many traditonalists therefore view the inlines as perverting the original intent of the ML seasons. Clearly, without any reasonable argument possible, inlines are closer to modern guns than to the old time guns. The components of a cartridge are loaded through the muzzle and most use modern telescopic sights. [aside: I know many hunters whose scopes cost twice as much as their rifle! the sights on a traditional rifle are a couple bucks worth of iron and or silver] The skills are different, the intent is different, the performance is different. Now, I have nothing against inlines per se, although I will never own one--have no use for one at all. Many traditionalists feel (1) that inlines subvert the ML seasons and (2)threatened by inlines--that is--fear that the traditional guns and ways will be lost because of the rise and dominance of inlines. A few years ago articles on ML hunting showed traditional arms, today such articles show only inlines. The trend has gone so far as to produce a bolt action ML rifle that shoots smokeless modern powder! Even the hallowed NMLRA admits inline records--and that org started out life to preserve the 'tradition'! There is no answer to this question that will make everyone happy. But the fact that it has such a life on this site shows that feelings are high and strong on this topic.....

 

Mike,.... Very well said!! :hatsoff:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[roundball]

ktw, those are reasonable comments and questions--especially in the light of all the venom spewed forth on this topic already. Most of us 'traditionalists' simply look at the situation from the opposite way of thinking from most of the inliners--not saying we're right, they're wrong, just opposite views. I doubt we'll see a compromise, it is too polarized. Most traditionalists seem to have started out with a love of the old time guns and maybe a love of the history of the early times they represent. Most of the inliners seem to have come into this mainly to extend their hunting season and with a desire to approximate the ballistics of their centerfire guns. Traditionalists rarely talk ballistics (though our modern minds cannot divorce those ideas completely)and the old timers never did. We want to hunt in the old way, to try to rediscover what our ancestors did and felt, not just extend our season. Most states ML/primitive seasons were originally set up with that in mind. Many traditonalists therefore view the inlines as perverting the original intent of the ML seasons. Clearly, without any reasonable argument possible, inlines are closer to modern guns than to the old time guns. The components of a cartridge are loaded through the muzzle and most use modern telescopic sights. [aside: I know many hunters whose scopes cost twice as much as their rifle! the sights on a traditional rifle are a couple bucks worth of iron and or silver] The skills are different, the intent is different, the performance is different. Now, I have nothing against inlines per se, although I will never own one--have no use for one at all. Many traditionalists feel (1) that inlines subvert the ML seasons and (2)threatened by inlines--that is--fear that the traditional guns and ways will be lost because of the rise and dominance of inlines. A few years ago articles on ML hunting showed traditional arms, today such articles show only inlines. The trend has gone so far as to produce a bolt action ML rifle that shoots smokeless modern powder! Even the hallowed NMLRA admits inline records--and that org started out life to preserve the 'tradition'! There is no answer to this question that will make everyone happy. But the fact that it has such a life on this site shows that feelings are high and strong on this topic.....

One of the best summaries on the subject I've read!

 

[jim gray]

:applause:

Well said, Mike.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Wolf,

Why squash Ktw because he has some very valid questions, concerns and views? Id say an apology is in order.

Really shows you could care less about how Ktw feels.

Honestly, it's that type of posture that really does a good job at fostering opposition and alienating folks. Which is not in the best interest of establishing traditional ML hunting seasons in my view.

I gather from his post that basically he really does not want to have to stop being friends with and hunting with his comrades.

Pretty valid concern as far as I can tell. Without an easy answer if you fairly contemplate the situation.

Quite complicated in fact if the goal of this forum is to accomplish banning all modern ML's from already established statewide seasons. And not even allow someone to have a concern or question.

Is this even the intent of the forum? I realize that banning the inlines from ML season is the agenda of some and they are entitled to it. But I never interpreted that to be the agenda of the forum?

If that is the case, then I think would only be fair to everyone for that agenda to be advertised by the forum Admin.
Perhaps this forum should be only for those that agree to a specific agenda and posture? Then you can talk amongst yourselves?

Perhaps Ktw is more interested in some form of compromise?

Something that does not involve exclusion of his hunting party?

Is that possible?
eace:

 

[wolf]

Wolf,

Why squash Ktw because he has some very valid questions, concerns and views?

It's obvious that he's read the other threads that go into great detail as to why some people eant to ban the inlines. To ask the quesiton again does nothing but start the debate all over again. Some of are sick of it! You can;t get half way through a thread now that someone doesn't bring it up. ENOUGH!

If you like inlines, go to an INLINE SITE! Why cause trouble here. It's like going to a canoe site and telling them they should be using power boats. Get over it and move on (or somewhere else).

 

[Claude Mathis]

ktw, those are reasonable comments and questions--especially in the light of all the venom spewed forth on this topic already. Most of us 'traditionalists' simply look at the situation from the opposite way of thinking from most of the inliners--not saying we're right, they're wrong, just opposite views. I doubt we'll see a compromise, it is too polarized. Most traditionalists seem to have started out with a love of the old time guns and maybe a love of the history of the early times they represent. Most of the inliners seem to have come into this mainly to extend their hunting season and with a desire to approximate the ballistics of their centerfire guns. Traditionalists rarely talk ballistics (though our modern minds cannot divorce those ideas completely)and the old timers never did. We want to hunt in the old way, to try to rediscover what our ancestors did and felt, not just extend our season. Most states ML/primitive seasons were originally set up with that in mind. Many traditonalists therefore view the inlines as perverting the original intent of the ML seasons. Clearly, without any reasonable argument possible, inlines are closer to modern guns than to the old time guns. The components of a cartridge are loaded through the muzzle and most use modern telescopic sights. [aside: I know many hunters whose scopes cost twice as much as their rifle! the sights on a traditional rifle are a couple bucks worth of iron and or silver] The skills are different, the intent is different, the performance is different. Now, I have nothing against inlines per se, although I will never own one--have no use for one at all. Many traditionalists feel (1) that inlines subvert the ML seasons and (2)threatened by inlines--that is--fear that the traditional guns and ways will be lost because of the rise and dominance of inlines. A few years ago articles on ML hunting showed traditional arms, today such articles show only inlines. The trend has gone so far as to produce a bolt action ML rifle that shoots smokeless modern powder! Even the hallowed NMLRA admits inline records--and that org started out life to preserve the 'tradition'! There is no answer to this question that will make everyone happy. But the fact that it has such a life on this site shows that feelings are high and strong on this topic.....

Your summation is great and it bears repeating. Perhaps several times. ::

 

[Runner]

Unfortunately, it isn't going to stop anytime soon because we threaten the money the big companies are dragging in off the inlines. New people will continue arrive here and do the same things as long as that is true. They learned about hiring the Wakemans a long time ago.

 

[Tahquamenon]

I read the man's post and simply feel that kicking him because he asked a question is not appropriate.

I would rather have Ktw's support for a traditional season, not opposition.

I think Mike Roberts offered a very thoughtful reply.

Thanks Mike! :applause:

:hatsoff:

 

[thomas]

Mike,

Excellent post! You summed the way I feel about it, only better. Thank You!

Thomas :thumbsup:

 

very good post mike . well said :hatsoff:

 

[ktw]

Thanks Mike Roberts, and tg, for the helpful replys.

I understand and share your appreciation for traditional firearms. I also understand reasonably well the differences between the traditional and inline crowds. In fact, if I apply it to the muzzleloaders I know personally it appears to me that the people who to tend to graviate to the traditional camp have a strong interest in history and/or the technical aspects of weaponry, while the people in the inline camp simply want to go hunting.

Mike Roberts Commented:
> Many traditonalists therefore view the inlines as perverting the original intent of the ML seasons.

From the state's perspective, all seasons exist to manage the deer herd. In that respect, the State doesn't appear to agree with you that inlines are perverting anything. Here in Michigan they recently rewarded all muzzleloaders with an extended season down in the shotgun zone on the grounds that muzzleloaders shoot a higher percentage of does than other types of hunters.

From my perspective, deer season is what I chose to make of it. I chose to hunt traditional because that makes deer season more rewarding to me. I fail to see how making other people hunt traditional, or not hunt at all, is going to have any effect on that.

If the intent is to convince more people to hunt traditional I'd expect to have a lot more success at it hunting with them, having a much more interesting rifle than they do and being successful with it, than I would with kicking them out of the woods during "My Season". All I'd expect that to accomplish would be to put them back out in the woods carrying those ugly-as-sin TC plastic/stainless Firestorms. You won't stop the advance of technology, you will only redirect it into looking for different loopholes.


Wolf Commented:
> Nothing personal, but why get involved in this?

There's currently a discussion of a Michigan traditional/primitive muzzleloading season elsewhere on this forum, and others. I wish them all of the luck in the world toward achieving it - I'd wouldn't mind having the opportunity to spend more days in the woods myself. Personally, I don't give them much chance of success, largely because their proposals appear to me to have a lot more to do with "more time for me in the woods without the unwashed masses" than they have anything to do with addressing any of the state's deer management concerns.

Nevertheless, they are going to need all of the political support they can muster in their endeavor. In forums such as this the agendas are largely driven by the people with the time, and inclination, to do a lot of posting. This can lead to polarizing discussions as you've recently witnessed here. The real danger lies in assuming that these forums mirror the views of the general hunting population.

I think there a lot of fence sitters among the general hunting population, like myself, who might welcome the opportunity to participate in a traditional-only muzzleloading season but are completely turned off by the apparent neccessity to crap all over other hunters as part of the process of obtaining one.

If that's the cost of a traditional-only season, I'd prefer to simply hunt traditional in the seasons we already have.

-ktw

 

I think there a lot of fence sitters among the general hunting population, like myself, who might welcome the opportunity to participate in a traditional-only muzzleloading season but are completely turned off by the apparent neccessity to crap all over other hunters as part of the process of obtaining one.

Thet is an excellent point,.... and is quite possibly how the traditionalists all across the country who worked for the original ML seasons feel towards the inline crowd/industry.
I know, I feel as tho my efforts have been ever-increasingly "crapped on" for more than 20+ years. :curse:

Why is it,.... thet inliner's think traditionalists should be pacifists and do 99% of the "understanding" in regards to this contoversey?? Ther would be no controversey at all, if the inlines hadn't showed up on the scene fairly recently.

I'm no pacifist, and it plum amazes me thet inliners seem to "EXPECT" me (and other traditionalists like me), to be one.

Sorry for be'n somewhat off-topic, but I felt compelled to reply to yore post, and try to put "some" of this controversy in it's proper perspective!!

rollingb

 

[Runner]

RB, you are discussing with someone that is here to keep us busy arguing instead of making progress. Read over their posts again and get the bottom line. It doesn't matter how they dress it up, they are spewing the inliner message while claiming to prefer our way. We have another person here that does the same thing all the time. His latest episode was the traditional means cap and primitive means flint crud. That was a direct attempt to drive a wedge between us. They are laughing about it on HA saying that the flinters are fighting with the cappers over here. This is just another TAQ to help us waste our time and remain unfocused. They will keep coming and they will get worse as things grow.

 

[tg]

"apparent neccessity to crap all over other hunters as part of the process of obtaining one"

No, No, No...not on the hunters only their perverted choice of weapons. this is not about people against people but people against technology in a venue where it does not belong.

 

RB, you are discussing with someone that is here to keep us busy arguing instead of making progress. Read over their posts again and get the bottom line. It doesn't matter how they dress it up, they are spewing the inliner message while claiming to prefer our way. We have another person here that does the same thing all the time. His latest episode was the traditional means cap and primitive means flint crud. That was a direct attempt to drive a wedge between us. They are laughing about it on HA saying that the flinters are fighting with the cappers over here. This is just another TAQ to help us waste our time and remain unfocused. They will keep coming and they will get worse as things grow.

Runner,.... Well, I guess I'll have to add anuther "imposter" to my ignore-list!! :haha:

Thanks for the "heads up"!! :thumbsup:
YMHS
rollingb

 

[Runner]

Don't ignore, just read closely. The argument is always the same few things. One is we are dividing and weakening gun owners. Another is that we are being exclusive. If you are fed up enough that you are willing to break with everyone to try and bring change, then you get the What about Me argument. None of the facts, no matter how well you explain them ever changes the story. The, They are the same, argument jumps up, and then the ballistics argument, then the roundball is not a good enough hunting bullet argument. Funny, they are not interested in short conicals that don't increase range caps tho. The eyesight/you are being mean to all the elders thing is a big one.

There is room for discussion and compromise. I have suggested the bore sized bullet less than 1.5 times bore diameters long rule. You would not believe the championship quality shooters that somehow can't wrap their heads around that concept because it would bring them back into traditional ballistics. They act like it makes no sense what so ever, like they never heard of BC and it's effect. There is very little money in roundball or ballets if that is all that is allowed. The scope issue is a thorny one. It is true that some people would be excluded by eliminating all optics. A doctors supported exemption makes the most sense but is also open to abuse and will always be under pressure by all other sides. There is no money in it and shooting suddenly takes practice again if irons are required. Still, this is one place where the exclusive argument gets traction and needs to be worked out to a smart stance that can be supported widely. Defining the action does not really matter if you get that far. An inline with irons, a bore sized bullet less than 1.5 calibers long with no plastic and a cap open to the elements will still take someone that wants to be involved in the sport. The driving around in pickup trucks jumping out and shooting at running deer two hundred yards away will be gone pretty much. Caplock ignition is an absolute if you ever wish to have the support to move anywhere. Traditional caps or earlier type ignition that is exposed to the elements has to be a definition written in the rules plainly. It will also be under fire constantly because it threatens all of the choices that are harder to ignite than black. Pyrodex will not sell many pellets to folks shooting traditional guns lit with 11's. Several chunks of money will be working to change that hard.

There are enough valid problems facing any such movement to keep all of us busy and smoke blowing out our ears considering them. Read and don't get caught up in the side issues like we all do all the time. Believe me, there will be a parade of well spoken guys wanting to join our side while at the same time arguing the same old tired arguments in every discussion. The truth is that none of us knows of a way to keep the inlines, scopes, plastic, closed actions, sabots, modern powders, the other such things and establish an traditonal season. It can't be done. That means that no matter what we do, we are going to make people mad. That can not be a show stopper. Maybe there is a way to explain that that will make it less hurtful to some folks. I have not found it. Like I said, otherwise smart men get really stupid when you try to explain why a Savage splitting a copper jacketed bullet wrapped in plastic using modern smokeless powder after aiming thru a 12 power scope is any different than shooting a roundball out of a traditional sidelock. A lot of them even try to say their is no advantage. If you find this nice way to explain it, let us all know. Until then facts are facts for me. Change is needed. I can see no way to do what I believe needs doing and keep everyone happy. I try to focus on why the changes are needed. Of course, I am a nut now you know!

Always remember this in these discussions. The Savage blew up on Toby. Savage picked up Randy because Toby would no longer argue for them. All of these companies have people online cruising and reading. Most have people that get consultant money participating in some of these discussions. Their goal is not a better muzzleloading experience for anyone.