Throwing hawks or knives in combat?

[Shiloh1944]

Keep the tomahawk in your hand and if you feel you need to throw something at your combatant pick up a nice hefty rock and throw it at them, but never give up your weapon.

 

[Ridge]

I've read lots of historical accounts of people throwing tomahawks in combat. The one overwhelming result in most cases was that the tomahawk missed. Now, this could be because throwing tomahawks in combat is a bad idea and takes as much luck as skill....or it could be that they were dead and, as such, stopped writing in their journal.

Personally I'll keep mine in my hand.

 

[Tanglefoot]

For starters, let's be clear. Hand weapons are better kept in your hand, if possible. There are circumstances where throwing one is necessary but those situations are rare. That said, thorough mastery of all of your weapons is to your advantage.
Tanglefoot

 

[Barrie Dale]

I went out to my club last Weds and found a nice small axe and a older Tomohawk stuck into our large throwing stump which we have mounted to throw at. There was a spare handle for each as well laying just below the two axes. Someone left them for us and they now have a new home with one of my members who collects axes. He had a Big smile when I gave them to him.

 

[Jeff Brown]

I read that some American Revolutionary War units were required to carry tomahawks & practice throwing them. Except for the American regulars, many had a rifle of some kind and no bayonet. I suspect that after everyone fired, and a bayonet charge was coming your way, 30 guys pitching tomahawks at 30 redcoats would produce some wounds. If 5 or 10 caught them in the head or neck, it would have been worth it. At that point, one's policy would be to "leave the field" to someplace one could reload.

 

[Black Hand]

I suspect that after everyone fired, and a bayonet charge was coming your way, 30 guys pitching tomahawks at 30 redcoats would produce some wounds. If 5 or 10 caught them in the head or neck, it would have been worth it. At that point, one's policy would be to "leave the field" to someplace one could reload.

Tomahawks are relatively slow-moving and the chances of hitting a small target (head/neck) with enough force OR at all, is pretty slim (tomahawks are close-quarter offensive/defensive weapons). And then there are the remaining pissed-off Brits with bayonets and a bunch of guys with empty guns and now empty hands....

Guerrilla warfare works best when a small force is opposing a larger and arguably better-trained military. Standing head to head in the standard European warfare model trading blows is suicide and throwing away your secondary weapon is just plain STUPID...

 

[George]

I'll reiterate my remarks above. In the 18th century they apparently didn't agree with modern-day thinking on the advisability of throwing the tomahawk...and other things.

From Joe D. Huddleston's "Colonial Riflemen in the American Revolution," Shumway, York, PA 1960, p. 16: Silas Deane, a delegate to the Second Continental congress from Connecticut, wrote in a letter to his wife describing the Philadelphia Associators, June 3, 1775:
"They have besides a Body of irregulars, or rifle Men, whose dress it is hard to describe. They take a piece of Ticklenburgh, or Tan cloth that is stout and put it in a Tann Fatt, until it has the shade of a dry, or fading Leaf, then they make a kind of Frock of it reaching down below the knee, open before, with a Large Cape, they wrap it round them tight on a March, & tye it with their Belt in which hangs their Tomahawk, their Hatts As the others.
"They exercise in the Neighboring Groves firing at Marks, and throwing their Tomahawks, forming on a sudden into one Line, and then at a Word, break their Order, and take their posts, to hit their mark. West of this City is an open Square, of near Two Miles each Way with large Groves each side, in which, each After Noon they Collect, with a vast Number of Spectators…"

THE SOUTH CAROLINA AND AMERICAN GENERAL GAZETTE
July 8, 1774
EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE.
"April 14. We hear from Winchester that the commanding officer of the regiment quartered there, and which is shortly to embark for America, is practising the officers and serjeants in a new kind of exercise, viz. throwing the espontoon and halbert after the manner of the javelin; which our greatest connoisseurs in the art military think vastly superiour to the fuzee, and that it will give these troops a great advantage over the Indians at bush-fightings, being better calculated for surprises, as doing execution without giving any alarm."

Spence

 

[Black Hand]

I'll reiterate my remarks above. In the 18th century they apparently didn't agree with modern-day thinking on the advisability of throwing the tomahawk...and other things.

From Joe D. Huddleston's "Colonial Riflemen in the American Revolution," Shumway, York, PA 1960, p. 16: Silas Deane, a delegate to the Second Continental congress from Connecticut, wrote in a letter to his wife describing the Philadelphia Associators, June 3, 1775:
"They have besides a Body of irregulars, or rifle Men, whose dress it is hard to describe. They take a piece of Ticklenburgh, or Tan cloth that is stout and put it in a Tann Fatt, until it has the shade of a dry, or fading Leaf, then they make a kind of Frock of it reaching down below the knee, open before, with a Large Cape, they wrap it round them tight on a March, & tye it with their Belt in which hangs their Tomahawk, their Hatts As the others.
"They exercise in the Neighboring Groves firing at Marks, and throwing their Tomahawks, forming on a sudden into one Line, and then at a Word, break their Order, and take their posts, to hit their mark. West of this City is an open Square, of near Two Miles each Way with large Groves each side, in which, each After Noon they Collect, with a vast Number of Spectators…"

THE SOUTH CAROLINA AND AMERICAN GENERAL GAZETTE
July 8, 1774
EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE.
"April 14. We hear from Winchester that the commanding officer of the regiment quartered there, and which is shortly to embark for America, is practising the officers and serjeants in a new kind of exercise, viz. throwing the espontoon and halbert after the manner of the javelin; which our greatest connoisseurs in the art military think vastly superiour to the fuzee, and that it will give these troops a great advantage over the Indians at bush-fightings, being better calculated for surprises, as doing execution without giving any alarm."

Spence

Spence,
I don't disagree that it was/might have been done historically, it just seems like a terrible idea. I wonder how common a practice it was in combat and when done in battle, how effective it was?
BH

 

[Coot]

I'll reiterate my remarks above. In the 18th century they apparently didn't agree with modern-day thinking on the advisability of throwing the tomahawk...and other things.

From Joe D. Huddleston's "Colonial Riflemen in the American Revolution," Shumway, York, PA 1960, p. 16: Silas Deane, a delegate to the Second Continental congress from Connecticut, wrote in a letter to his wife describing the Philadelphia Associators, June 3, 1775:
"They have besides a Body of irregulars, or rifle Men, whose dress it is hard to describe. They take a piece of Ticklenburgh, or Tan cloth that is stout and put it in a Tann Fatt, until it has the shade of a dry, or fading Leaf, then they make a kind of Frock of it reaching down below the knee, open before, with a Large Cape, they wrap it round them tight on a March, & tye it with their Belt in which hangs their Tomahawk, their Hatts As the others.
"They exercise in the Neighboring Groves firing at Marks, and throwing their Tomahawks, forming on a sudden into one Line, and then at a Word, break their Order, and take their posts, to hit their mark. West of this City is an open Square, of near Two Miles each Way with large Groves each side, in which, each After Noon they Collect, with a vast Number of Spectators…"

THE SOUTH CAROLINA AND AMERICAN GENERAL GAZETTE
July 8, 1774
EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE.
"April 14. We hear from Winchester that the commanding officer of the regiment quartered there, and which is shortly to embark for America, is practising the officers and serjeants in a new kind of exercise, viz. throwing the espontoon and halbert after the manner of the javelin; which our greatest connoisseurs in the art military think vastly superiour to the fuzee, and that it will give these troops a great advantage over the Indians at bush-fightings, being better calculated for surprises, as doing execution without giving any alarm."

Spence

I wonder if throwing hawks was for battle practice or if, like today, done as a pastime, amusement or for bragging rights with the spectators?

 

[Tom A Hawk]

The hawk is partly tool ( hatchet ) and partly close quarters weapon. As such it is most useful when gripped firmly for repeated strikes, Throwing your weapon seems a bit like shooting your ram rod. Once its gone...its gone. I think it was Fess Parker who said, "A hawk in the hand is worth two birds in the bush. But a bush in the hand is...."

 

[Robby]

I view it as a weapon and as such want to be well versed in all its capabilities, including throwing. I like a foe that voluntarily limits himself in the use of his arms.
Robby

 

[Crewdawg445]

I've read lots of historical accounts of people throwing tomahawks in combat. The one overwhelming result in most cases was that the tomahawk missed. Now, this could be because throwing tomahawks in combat is a bad idea and takes as much luck as skill....or it could be that they were dead and, as such, stopped writing in their journal.

Personally I'll keep mine in my hand.

What period accounts? I'm curious of this.

 

[smoothshooter]

Ah but Doddridge also wrote:

"Throwing the tomahawk was another boyish sport, in which many acquired considerable skill. The tomahawk with its handle of certain length will make a given number of turns in a given distance. Say in five steps it will strike with the edge, the handle downwards; at the distance of seven and a half, it will strike with the edge, the handle upwards, and so on. A little experience enabled the boy to measure the distance with the eye, when walking through the woods, and strike a tree with his tomahawk in any way he chose."

From the previous references for tomahawks, it seems Indians threw them a lot, but perhaps, for whites, it was a boy's pastime?

:idunno:

LD

I would say that sometimes, whem a knife or tomahawk/hatchet was thrown in desperation, the object was not to stick the sharp edge in an opponent's body, but to hit him somewhere with a relatively heavy and angular object hard enough to disable, or at least disorient him enough that said opponet could be finished off in a more effective manner.
Being forcefully struck in the head or certain other parts of the body with an object like that could cause serious injury even if they were only with the handle.

In some circumstances being struck the same way with a stick of firewood even a rolling pin would achieve the same results.
Haven't some primitive cultures used special " rabbit sticks " to kill small game on several continents?

 

[brazosland]

Russian SF train to this day with a specially designed E-tool that is used in the hand and also thrown. There is a time and a place for every skill.

You assume that by throwing the hawk you are now weaponless. There is your knife. And your rifle as a club. There are also many other weapons laying about that can be picked up and used.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Tomahawk challenge. Just for fun and curiosity. Go purchase a side of pork ribs. Wrap it in a shirt and throw your hawk from 15 feet. Then unwrap the enemy and post a photo of the damage done. Would it be enough to disable an attacker?
Then, cook and eat the ribs.

 

[Ridge]

What period accounts? I'm curious of this.

Start with the Draper Manuscripts. Then go to Chronicles of Border Warfare.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Tomahawk challenge. Just for fun and curiosity. Go purchase a side of pork ribs. Wrap it in a shirt and throw your hawk from 15 feet. Then unwrap the enemy and post a photo of the damage done. Would it be enough to disable an attacker?

NOPE
Throwing axes as a tactic is documented as being used by the Franks and Goths, to degrade some of the fighting capability of their foes, not necessarily to incapacitate them...then came the Romans with their "tortoise" shield formation.., and it turned out to not be so good.

The Chinese used to launch knives at opponents..., literally, "launch" as did some of the Moguls....they fastened them to rockets to get some altitude and the motors would burn out over the enemy, and with the solid fuel burned up they would destabilize and fall to the ground, spinning as they fell...., other than that....

NOW IF you're a Ninja, and you can coat the tips of the throwing knives or your shuriken with fugu [blowfish] poison, a nerotoxin, OK then you have an effective throwing knife....

LD

 

[Nyckname]

...then came the Romans with their "tortoise" shield formation.., and it turned out to not be so good.

Part of the design of the francisca allowed them to bounce of off the ground, so if the Romans were standing, with the scuta held high, the legs were still vulnerable.

...your shuriken with fugu [blowfish] poison, a nerotoxin, OK then you have an effective throwing knife...

Whereas the shuriken by themselves were just a distraction. They can't kill the way they're shown doing in movies. Unless you get lucky and hit a pulse point.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

the legs were still vulnerable.

Yes you are going to "degrade" the guys ability to fight, not kill him with a flesh wound to the leg after the axe bounces..., unless as you observed, you hit him in an artery, but this was MUCH more effective against their fellow enemy tribesmen, than the Romans.

LD

 

[WRustyLane]

Tomahawk challenge. Just for fun and curiosity. Go purchase a side of pork ribs. Wrap it in a shirt and throw your hawk from 15 feet. Then unwrap the enemy and post a photo of the damage done. Would it be enough to disable an attacker?
Then, cook and eat the ribs.

Cooking the ribs afterward sounds very good! However, in a battle, I think I would prefer to hold onto my hawk and use it as the club instead of my rifle. If all fails I still have my knife which I am adept at using (thanks to the USMC) and if that fails I would resort to using my rifle as a club after firing it. I just would hope that I am as adept at using the hawk as I am at using a knife.