Tinder Box

[crockett]

IMHO the tinder tube does not work as well as char cloth is lighting a nest but it can be done.

ONE THING everyone is missing.......

Char cloth- you have to cut up 100% cotton patches and cook them, and cook them right to get good char.

Tinder tube- put cotton rope in the tube with about 1" sticking out one side of the tube. Light the cotton rope with a match- campfire- whatever- let the rope burn a second or two and then pull the rope back into the tube and put your finger over the end to cut off the air- all set to go. You don't have to make char cloth. One word of advise, when you push the charred end out for catching a spark, the char part can easily rub off so be careful to keep the end black and sooty.

 

[BobKrohn]

Oh boy, I guess I'll have to now get a larger container for my firemaking kit.

Question, any possibility that this device could have been used to "carry" fire between locations like Survivorman does with his indian fire bundle?
eg. when weather is bad or lost flint or steel.

Is the matchlock cloth treated in some way to make it continue burning?

PS - Here in SoCal there is a craft store called Michael's. They have nice little 3"x5" metal snap lid boxes (called gift boxes and are next to cash register). I think that's a little bigger than Altoids box and no embossing. They are $1.00

 

[BrownBear]

Speaking of tinder boxes, is there any record of tinder and fire makings being carried in anything other than a tin box? I'm thinking of a oiled or waxed drawstring bag of deerhide or some such.

The last think I need is a tin box with a hunk of metal in it rattling around in my possibles bag. I'm noisy enough as it is, without the help of a brass band in my bag.

 

[davemcg]

Oh boy, I guess I'll have to now get a larger container for my firemaking kit.

Question, any possibility that this device could have been used to "carry" fire between locations like Survivorman does with his indian fire bundle?
eg. when weather is bad or lost flint or steel.

Is the matchlock cloth treated in some way to make it continue burning?

No a fire bundle is just that, a bundle of leaves bark and other debris into which a live coal is placed and kept somewhat air tight so it smolders until you open it up to use it, they're also big enough so the coal won't burn through.

A tinder tube along with a flint & steel is more like a Zippo lighter without the lighter fluid, you have a wick and a device to shoot sparks into the wick, once the spark catches in the charred end it starts to smolder and from there you can light your pipe or start a fire. pulling the wick back into the tube extinguishes the end.

Concerning the "matchlock cloth" you refer to it's nothing special, as crocket said cotton rope works, in an earlier picture you'll see cotton "monks cloth" rolled up and stuffed into the tube. But it does HAVE TO BE 100% cotton to work.

 

[pichou]

Sure, anything you like. Wood, cloth, hide...

The advantage of metal is that you can use it to put your tinder OUT in, so it doesn't all burn up. Most domestic metal tinderboxes had a extra piece of metal inside called a damper, so you could stomp out that glowing tinder.

 

[davemcg]

Sure, anything you like. Wood, cloth, hide...

The advantage of metal is that you can use it to put your tinder OUT in, so it doesn't all burn up. Most domestic metal tinderboxes had a extra piece of metal inside called a damper, so you could stomp out that glowing tinder.

Would you mind elaborating on this a little bit?

When I use char cloth I take a piece out of the box, strike a spark on to it then put it into my preformed "nest" of shredded bark or grass whatever, then blow on it until it all bursts into flames.
What tinder would I be returning back to the tinder box? Would "they" have returned a piece of singed (sic?) tinder back into the box for use as a future peice of "char".

I'm always curious about alternatives to cotton char, thinking back in the day
#1 Cotton was expensive, #2 did they really have an endless supply of old T-shirts? :grin:

Thanks.

 

[LaBonte]

I'm always curious about alternatives to cotton char, thinking back in the day
#1 Cotton was expensive, #2 did they really have an endless supply of old T-shirts?

Depends on what day - cotton is well represented on the trade lists of the "classic" mountain man period of the 1820's-40's period, both as cloth (including pillow ticking) and as various clothing, shirts in particular so not really rare or expensive even in the mountains.........
Even in the 18th Century it wasn't necessarily that expensive depending on when and where, runaway adverts quite often mention black slaves and/or indentured servants wearing cotton....

Also I've used linen for char cloth - not quite as good as cotton, but real cloe in my experience.

 

[crockett]

Quiet Thunder: this char cloth business. I think there may be some documentation for it but it is pretty slim. What I have read is accounts of sending a shower of sparks into your tinder box to start the fire. I'm not sure how this was accomplished but I'll give my take on it and others with the proper answer can add their information.
Not to sound like a wise guy but I think a tinder box held tinder, not the fire steel, flint, etc. What this tinder was I don't know, it could have been charred remains from a previous campfire, charred punk (the dried interior of a dead tree). In any event it sounds like one directed the sparks into this tinder box to get a coal. At that point the coal and some surrounding material was either pried out with a knife or the bird's nest put on top of the glowing coal still in the tinder box and then blown into flame. Personally, I think the coal was normally left in the tinder box. I say this because Pichou says there were dampers on some tinder boxes and the only reason you would need a damper is if the coal was left in the box.
Once the fire was under way the top of the tinder box was closed to extinguish the embers left in the tinder. The lack of oxygen probably created a bit more char until the ember was fully extinguished.
The mountain men carried a little parfleche bag, maybe 3" by 5", often in front of a pipe bag. This little bag was called a strike-a-lite bag and held the flint and steel. As I said the flint and steel were not carried in a tinder box. There are a lot of late 1800's strike-a-lite bags but pre-1840 are few and far between. Jim Baker has one in the painting of him but the painting was post 1840. By the way some folks erroneously call a pipe bag a strike-a-lite bag. The pipe bag was much longer and larger.

 

[ameling]

A bunch of people have been searching for a long time for any references or descriptions of charcloth and its use before the mid to late 1800's. So far they have not found anything. And that includes metal containers for charring cloth. So the whole use of charcloth in fire starting is ... um ... questionable ... before the mid to late 1800's.

And to confuse things even more, they knew about matchcord for use with matchlocks for several hundred years before that. And the Tindertube starts showing up in the late 1700's, but mostly into the 1800's.

So they understood catching a spark on the end of some charred cloth - either cord/rope or rolled up cloth. But use of just charcloth is lacking in the written records. Why? Who really knows?

One thing that was used and documented was charred bits of wood. Some coals from the fire were put into a wood or metal box, and then a fairly tight lid was set down over it to put them out. The next time you wanted to start a fire, you would open that box up and strike your sparks down into those charred bits of wood. When a spark caught in one or more, you fished one out, put it into your "bird's nest", and started your fire like normal. And you put that lid back down in and over the charred bits of wood to extinquish any sparks still burning in it.

You see lots of wood "tinderboxes" out there. And the insides of them are usually blackened and charred a bit. Plus the metal ones usually have that extra flat-plate-with-handle to set down inside them on top of the charred wood and coals - to help extinguish them. You then put your flint/steel in on top of that and put the whole cover over it all.

Now days, most people don't bother with that extra "extinquishing" plate inside their "tinderbox", and they just use charcloth instead of charred wood. But more and more people are shifting to using charred wood because of that lack of documentation for charcloth before the mid 1800's.

And then the changing terminology also complicates matters. Punk, spunge, tinder, spunk, and several other words I can't remember at the moment.

A couple good articles on fire starting "gear" that might help are:

On The Trail magazine Vol. 11 #2 May/June 2004 A look into fire-starting for the Nor'wester by Karl Koster

Muzzleloader Magazine July/August 2007 Strike A Light by Rex Allen Norman

Karl's article deals more with the Northern Great Lakes fur trade era, and Rex's deals more with the western Rocky Mountain fur trade era. But both have info that crosses many time periods and geographical areas.

Just some more humble thoughts to confuse the whole issue a bunch more --- and best used in conjunction with your own research.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[davemcg]

Very interesting crockett, you didn't come across as a wise guy at all, thanks for your input!
Got any suggestions for further study?

I think fire starting was just such a common chore why would they bother writing how to do it.
200 years later it's kind of frustrating :haha:

Thanks Mike for your info too

 

[Rod Lassey]

I don't carry my flint and steel in my tinder box, either. Why?--because it'll rattle about and break up all my tinder. Besides, it's not like either the flint or the steel needs to be protected in a box. As for the tinder, I use punky charred wood, carried in my box. To make the charwood,simply light the end of the wood on fire, get it glowing good, then drop it in the box and close the lid to let it char and extinguish. I keep my flint, steel, tinderbox of charwood, bits of birchbark, cedar shavings, burning glass, and cottonwood inner bark in a bag.

The only time I carry a steel in a box is my emergency kit. In case my main fire kit gets wet, or lost, I carry a small tinderbox with a small steel, charwood, and tinder in my shotpouch (which I always should wear, even while sleeping, right :wink. The lid is sealed on this with grease, and is waterproof. And yes, I've dunked it in water to be sure. This will only be opened if absolutely necessary, otherwise I use my much larger main kit, which I generally carry in my packs, not on my person.

Just the way I do it.

Rod

 

[ameling]

And then I completely forgot about tinder fungus -- innonotus obliquus. It is a fungus that grows primarily on Birch trees - black spiky/knobby outside with orangish insides. The inside orange part of that fungus will catch a spark from flint/steel AS-IS without any charring or prior preparation. Amazing stuff. And the stuff pretty fresh off of the tree seems to work better than fungus that has been drying for a while. It was used by the Indians up in Canada and around the Great Lakes for many many years. And the Europeans were kind of surprised to find it being used.

The only real drawback is that you have to live in an area were birch trees grow to find it -- or trade with somebody who does.

And there is a fungus that grows on some Pine trees that works quite similarily. Sort of like a puffball, just on some varieties of Pine. I don't know the scientific name, nor have I seen any on a tree. I've just seen some a friend had.

And you can "char" most of the shelf or horses-hoof fungus like you would charcloth, and they then catch that spark prette fast. Or you can make amadou. It is a thin fluffy layer cut out of shelf fungi between the hard outside shell and the inside gills. It is then pounded a bit to "fluff" it up some more, and then soaked in a potassium nitrate solution. When a spark hits it, it works much like a slow cannon fuse! Almost impossible to put out, and hot burning. There are Viking era accounts of them making their amadou by boiling that fungus layer in strong urine! And that is to concentrate the potassium nitrate in urine.

Just some more thoughts to confuse things even more.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[pichou]

Yes, punkwood is mentioned fairly often.

Also that tinder fungus stuff. :wink:
Well known to Native Americans who lived where birches grow. Also mentioned in the Canadian fur trade. See Nicholas Garry for example.

Cotton and linen are really prone to damp, and throwing a nice soldered tin box in the fire is not a option. :haha: Candy cans like Altoids are die-stamped. Not really typical of pre-1840. :hmm:

 

[LaBonte]

Cotton and linen are really prone to damp, and throwing a nice soldered tin box in the fire is not a option

Cans are convenient but they're not necessary to make char cloth - just wrap it on a stick; get it to start to char, and then put it out real quick - I've rolled it against the bottom of my kettle or such to put it out, but just putting it out with your hand will work too - it's not all that hot, unless maybe you've got baby soft hands.... IIRC it was Karl Koster whoe mentioned making char in a similar way on another board.
Then again no reason you can't just make it in your kettle -- a bit large, but it will work in a pinch.
As to lack of mention for char "cloth" specifically - yep not much early on, but there is a fair amount of documentation that mentions just "char" or "tinder" with no further description. KK mentioned that too...

Cotton and linen are really prone to damp

Here in the high, dry Rockies that's not much of a problem (average humidity 20% or less most of the time) and charred anything tends to draw moisture in my experience......

The mountain men carried a little parfleche bag, maybe 3" by 5", often in front of a pipe bag. This little bag was called a strike-a-lite bag and held the flint and steel. As I said the flint and steel were not carried in a tinder box. There are a lot of late 1800's strike-a-lite bags but pre-1840 are few and far between. Jim Baker has one in the painting of him but the painting was post 1840. By the way some folks erroneously call a pipe bag a strike-a-lite bag. The pipe bag was much longer and larger.

Most strike-a-lights are made from a combo of a parfleche nack (rawhide for the pilgrims)and braintan front. There are a fair number of pre-1840 ones still extant made by the Kiowas. In the later reservation years these pouches while still called strike-a-lights, were in fact more often used as ration card cases.
There are a few, very few, of what we now call pipe bags from pre-1840. One was illustrated by Bodmer and is in a collection in Europe, but all the early ones are fairly short and sparsely decorated in comparison to the long, fancy ones which start showing up around the mid-1850's, but were not popular until about 10 years later.
In fact there is little written or other documentation of the mountaineers wearing a belt pouch of any kind. Osborne Russell does mention a tobacco pouch being worn on the belt, but exactly what it looked like is unknown. One of the few examples of a belt pouch used by a "white" is the one shown being worn by the interpreter (possibly Toussaint Charbonneau who was more than likely a metis) in Bodmer's painting of the Prince and Bodmer meeting Indians outside the fort. It is one of the pouches with an integral belt - you can see a couple of pouches of a different shape but still with this attached belt on the Splendid Heritage site.

as always others mileage will vary.....

 

[LaBonte]

Jim Baker has one in the painting of him but the painting was post 1840.

That painting of Jim Baker was painted by Charles Waldo Love who wasn't even born until 1881. Jim passed on in 1898 so they may not have even met - I sure wouldn't base any pre-1840 (or even pre-1860) gear on it.....There are several photos of Jim so the artist may have used one as the basis for Jim's face and figure and then dressed him in what is mostly late 1800's gear.
Love, who did live in Colorado at one time, painted a number of pictures for the Colorado Historical Society and other institutions in that state.

 

[ameling]

Karl Koster's method of making charcloth without a "tin" was to take a long strip of cloth (cotton or linen) and roll it up around the end of a small green stick - kind of like making a hollyweird torch. He would then burn/roast it over the fire till most of the flame on it had died down and the outside was black or glowing red. He would then bury it in the dirt to put it out. When it was cold and definitely out, he would cut/break the stick off short and put it into a bag or pouch to carry it about. That bag/pouch would somewhat protect his charcloth, but also keep that black crud from getting onto everything else.

The outside several layers would be over-burnt, and would easily just crumble. But as you slowly unrolled it, the cloth would turn into regular charcloth. Just tear off a chunk to use. As you unrolled it further, it would start to get "less charred" and start to be more brownish in color. When it would not catch a spark easily, he would just burn it some more in the fire and bury it in the dirt once again.

You do lose some more cloth this way, but the advantage is that you do not need a tin to make charcloth.

But now Karl has mostly shifted over to using tinder fungus or charred punk wood - because of that lack of good documentation for what we now call charcloth.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmithout in the Hinterlands

 

[crockett]

LaBonte: those pre-1840 strike-a-lights: I wasn't sure any existed. Do they look like the later day styles? The article I'm talking about is 4"-5" tall and maybe 3" wide with a little flap over the top. Most are a little more narrow at the top compared to the bottom. The later 1800's styles were covered with bead work in most instances.I'm assuming this article carried a flint and steel. All information welcomed!

I'm mostly interested in the mountain man era. There are a few accounts in the various journals where the writer/mountain man notes he was unable to strike fire due to rain, wind, whatever. There are accounts of using the lock on a flintlock rifle or pistol to start a fire, and.... I'll still argue that instead of this idea of a flintlock being preferred over a percussion because you could pick up a piece of flint off the ground- well, how much flint is around? I think the flint lock may have been preferred because you had a back up means of starting a fire.

and... Fitzpatrick, the time he got temporarily delayed in 1832 by the Blackfoot, he says he started a fire by rubbing two sticks together. That's the only account of that I've ever read but....when you use a bow and drill (if I recall correctly) you start grinding out a lot of brown powder before getting an ember- which I found very difficult to do. What about the brown powder- is that char? Would it hold a spark if you ran out of char cloth, lost your tinder box, etc? In other words if you have no fire and no char but did have flint and steel, could you make a bow and drill and manufacture some char that way?

 

[ameling]

and... Fitzpatrick, the time he got temporarily delayed in 1832 by the Blackfoot, he says he started a fire by rubbing two sticks together. That's the only account of that I've ever read but....when you use a bow and drill (if I recall correctly) you start grinding out a lot of brown powder before getting an ember- which I found very difficult to do. What about the brown powder- is that char? Would it hold a spark if you ran out of char cloth, lost your tinder box, etc? In other words if you have no fire and no char but did have flint and steel, could you make a bow and drill and manufacture some char that way?

When you are using a bowdrill or handrill to start a fire, you are spinning one end of a stick in a rounded depression in another. The friction between the two creates some fine wood powder. As the heat builds up in the wood and that powder, that powder starts to turn brown and eventually turn black. When the temp gets up to around 800 degrees, it will ignite into a burning ember/coal. So that bow drill or hand drill creates that fine powder, and then heats it up hot enough to self-combust. The Powdered wood is the end product you want. Your sticks never start burning - like so many of those clueless wannabe TV stars on the survival reality shows think.

So, yes, you could create some browned/blackened wood powder that way. And that powder will catch a spark fairly fast - just like charred wood.

I've started a couple dozen fires with a bow drill so far. It really helped to understand what I was really trying to do. Before that, I got lots and lots of smoke, but never anything past that. But once the whole process was explained to me, I started to get my burning ember/coal in the powder - and in under a minute. Once you have your "spark", the rest is just normal simple fire starting with a "bird's nest" of tinder, and graduated sizes of sticks.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. One of Karl Koster's articles listed a bunch of journal entries talking about how they had problems starting a fire do to weather or lack of materials - and how they suffered from that.

 

[Robert Egler]

I'll still argue that instead of this idea of a flintlock being preferred over a percussion because you could pick up a piece of flint off the ground- well, how much flint is around? I think the flint lock may have been preferred because you had a back up means of starting a fire.

I can't say anything about the idea that a flintlock was preferred as a backup way of starting a fire, but I can say that in a pinch a lot of rocks other than flint can be used in a flintlock.

Out of curiosity I've played around with other rocks some, and quartz and quartzite (and you can find quartz in a lot of places) works well, except that it is fragile and breaks after 2 or 3 shots. But 2 or 3 shots is better than 0 shots. Basalt and rhyolite will also work, rhyolite better than basalt in my experience. Agate works. Several rocks I couldn’t identify can work too. I test them with a fire steel and if they spark they’ll work for at least a shot or two, some a lot longer. I've gotten 30 shots from a rhyolite "flint" I knapped.

I have no idea if that was a reason why some kept using flintlocks or not( :surrender: ), I just offer the observation that you don’t have to pick up flint per se to make a flintlock work, in a pinch there’s a lot of stuff that will work for a couple of shots at least.

 

[pichou]

In the pre-1840 Canadian fur trade, you see sac à feu, usually a dead furry critter like a muskrat.

Were they dual use tinder/tobacco? Almost certainly, since the engagés smoked so much, and didn't carry live coals en canot.