Traditional M/L Guns from India

[TobJohn]

That is very nice. What i like about these guns, is that you can get something very finely decorated for under $2000(now), verse the $10,000 for a similar condition European matchlock.

 

[rickystl]

136.5 grains for .535??? Thats a lot of bang.

Do you have an example of how the powder was carried?

Hi John

Well, it appears this Thread is getting some great action.

Here are some original powder containers from India:

First Photos: This is commonly known as a Barudan. The design originated in India (I believe). This particular one is in ultra nice condition and is still usable. It is made of wood covered in finely tooled, stretched leather with a bone/ivory spout. It will hold over a half-pound of powder. This is a favorite flask in my collection due to it's wonderful condition. I believe this one is from Northern or Central India.
Second Photos: Small priming flask in the shape of a fish, missing it's plug. Believe this is from South India.
Third Photos: Another small iron priming flask. Again, a South India design I believe. (The bottle shaped flask is Ottoman - ignore).

All three had tiny traces of old black powder inside.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi John

Well, it appears this Thread is getting some great action.

Here are some original powder containers from India:

First Photos: This is commonly known as a Barudan. The design originated in India (I believe). This particular one is in ultra nice condition and is still usable. It is made of wood covered in finely tooled, stretched leather with a bone/ivory spout. It will hold over a half-pound of powder. This is a favorite flask in my collection due to it's wonderful condition. I believe this one is from Northern or Central India.
Second Photos: Small priming flask in the shape of a fish, missing it's plug. Believe this is from South India.
Third Photos: Another small iron priming flask. Again, a South India design I believe. (The bottle shaped flask is Ottoman - ignore).View attachment 183208View attachment 183209View attachment 183210View attachment 183212View attachment 183213View attachment 183214View attachment 183216

All three had tiny traces of old black powder inside.

Rick

That cornucopia reminiscent shape of the first one is fascinating.

 

[rickystl]

It may sound odd, but I keep one of these handy in the kitchen for skunks and other varmints.
It is a very reliable gun. The one in question is so light it is like it starved to death! A mere stick for a stock, and a very light barrel about 40 inches if I remember right.
It's from up in Rajasthan. It needed work, had parts missing and barrel was plugged.
When I got the latter unplugged I found it was loaded with fireworks and a six inch nail!
It needed some fine boring, and the barrel is still pretty awful but it throws shot well enough.

These arms are so hard to date, as those depicted in the miniatures of Akbar or his Grandson, Shah Jajan, are identical to many seen nowadays.
So, Are they 16th century or 19th ? There are a few differences in some, but others are very difficult to tell!

As Rick can attest, these barrels have a rather huge powder chamber, a narrower "neck" to prevent a ball entering said chamber, then a normal straight bore to the muzzle.
One of mine I have used quite a bit holds 5 drams in the powder chamber and goes off with a terrific noise! (136.5 grains) The bore takes a .535 unpatched ball very nicely, with either a cow dung (Dried!) wad, or felt wads if you prefer.
The cow dung is traditional, and somehow keeps the bore from fouling badly! Yes, that Does sound Ironic! LOL
This gun came from Jaipur.
I believe it was solely a sporting gun. You will see now and again toradors with two hamsa, one on either side of the stock behind the tang area. These are birds, goose or swan like and known as Hamsa in Hinduism. They are mythalogical birds with various spiritual meanings.
I believe that only Toradors from Jaipur and Amber bear these likenesses inlet into the stock.
These guns also have a few other identifying features, like the hole behind the breech in which to extinguish the match. Many others have a metal snuffer attached to the lock side.
Here are a couple f pictures of mine, rather dirty after a shooting session, plus the steel target!
the last photo shows the 'wadding'.
View attachment 183115View attachment 183116View attachment 183117View attachment 183118View attachment 183119

Hi Pukka

I remember you beating me to the punch in being the first (of anyone I know) to shoot one of these Toradors. LOL And, you did a great job in restoring. I still like the engraved iron mounts on your's better than the brass mounts. And the mix of both copper and leather barrel bands look right with this gun. And, by the way, good shooting too.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

That cornucopia reminiscent shape of the first one is fascinating.

If you Google up Barudan powder flasks you can see others similar. A simple leather/cotton strap attached to the upper center of the loop makes it very easy to carry.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

If you Google up Barudan powder flasks you can see others similar. A simple leather/cotton strap attached to the upper center of the loop makes it very easy to carry.

Rick

When googling, I found this incredible piece:
Helgot

 

[rickystl]

Its hard with these guns to say where they originated many times. They could be spoils of war ad moved great distances from where they originated.
Lord Eggeton's book help, but we still do not know or sure quite often.
I have two barrels to stock up, and according to Eggerton, it looks like they come from Oude by his description and pictures.

View attachment 183158View attachment 183159View attachment 183160View attachment 183161
Both barrels are about 53 inches long, the first about .55 cal, the second about .70 cal.
The latter never had a hinged pan cover.
Some were made with a cover that slipped over the pan and was attached with a chain. Others had no pan cover at all. The priming was mealed, and pressed in and stuck.
I believe for horseback use the type with no pan cover was used more.

Those are two very nice barrels. The barrel on mine is also 53/54" It might be a challenge to find a one-piece wood stock blank long enough to make the stocks (?) LOL. Probably why even the originals that I've seen (like mine) were made with two sections.
I've viewed only one Torador that had the separate pan cover with the chain. Don't see them too often. Although I've seen many that were made without a pan cover. That's an interesting theory with the use of the non-pan covered while mounted. Hmmm... could be.
Too bad the locals never left any written information to that effect.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

More eye candy ...

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Hi Flint

That silver mounted Torador is a beauty. And should end up a great looking restoration. If you wire brush the end of the breech you should be able to see the breech plug that was forged in place. Should look similar to mine. See photo.
If you decide to send the barrel to Bobby Hoyt, just remind him of my barrel. (He'll probably think to himself - oh no !!! LOL). He now has experience and knows what is required to make it a standard type cylinder bore. There will be extra cost due to extra material and labor. But still reasonable and turns out perfect. I'll post before and after photos of the work on my barrel as this Thread moves along.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is a small collection of three original vent picks for use with the Torador muskets. These would likely be considered somewhat rare today.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Here is a small collection of three original vent picks for use with the Torador muskets. These would likely be considered somewhat rare today.

RickView attachment 183217View attachment 183218View attachment 183219

Is there a functional reason why these are more common with Toradar than European arms?

 

[Rudyard]

Is there a functional reason why these are more common with Toradar than European arms?

' Don't look for logic in India' though the handy vent pick seems eminently practical Cheers Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Is there a functional reason why these are more common with Toradar than European arms?

I don't think so. Small items like this tend to get lost over the many years. Or discarded since know one knows what they were used for.
I bought these three from a seller in India who mention they came from an old museum collection that had sold off many years earlier. They are genuine old forgings (not castings). While they could be used with any muzzle loader, they are not a British or otherwise military issued item. My opinion on these for original use with Toradors is the stylistic characteristics and the Country I received them from.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

I don't think so. Small items like this tend to get lost over the many years. Or discarded since know one knows what they were used for.
I bought these three from a seller in India who mention they came from an old museum collection that had sold off many years earlier. They are genuine old forgings (not castings). While they could be used with any muzzle loader, they are not a British or otherwise military issued item. My opinion on these for original use with Toradors is the stylistic characteristics and the Country I received them from.

Rick

That makes sense. When browsing museum collections and auction sites, I’ve noticed they are decently common on Toradar, or at least a sign they were once there.

 

[rickystl]

Some period art profiles:

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Some period art profiles:

RickView attachment 183228View attachment 183229View attachment 183231View attachment 183233View attachment 183234View attachment 183235View attachment 183236

Thanks for sharing these. I like that they show the bladed sidearms carried by the soldiers. Thats something I always try and check for in period European art.

The old photograph also validates my claim about sword and shield troops!

 

[rickystl]

Thanks for sharing these. I like that they show the bladed sidearms carried by the soldiers. Thats something I always try and check for in period European art.

The old photograph also validates my claim about sword and shield troops!

Blades and shield....

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Blades and shield....

RickView attachment 183241View attachment 183243View attachment 183244

Is your house actually the warehouse from Indian Jones?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Is your house actually the warehouse from Indian Jones?

No kidding ... who needs a museum when they could tour Rick's place?????????????????????????????

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Does anyone make reproductions of these??

 

[TobJohn]

Does anyone make reproductions of these??

Originals are not very expensive. Replicas would probably be more expensive due to the barrels.