Traditional M/L Guns from India

[Rudyard]

Well no reason they can't be reproduced but they do or did seem very common . thousand being sold off from the once well stocked Palaces of the numbers of 'Ex Rulers " as the Indians described them . Makeing the barrel presisly would be a major task but spare barrels seemed to be common. I have waidded cautiously over . Armouries littered with Matchlocks in the dusty grot of the Maharaja of Mahair 's armoury, with belts & buckle's & racks that once held Sniders or some such. And sat sans carriage was a belt fed machine gun midst swords All dust caked but interesting . We negotiated to buy the M locks If all the rest was' thrown in ' . But it didnt in the Event pan out .But I did buy two cased double rifles from HRH Nagod the same day . He held court by hurricane lamps on his porch , He had been out on' Shikar' earlier in the day & two pigs where carried by his bearers slung on poles his rifle was a boxlock double not sure of caliber but nitro . The guns I bought where an old fashioned Lancasters oval bore slide by camming underlever 450 BP 3 & a quarter Express . The other a 450 400 hundred Jefferies sidelock nitro . When I landed at Heathrow the customs man said "Bit of the Raj coming home " true enough ,

' Youth was cheap wherefore we sold it, Gold was good we hoped to hold it ' And Today we know the fullness of our gains "

. From Kipling,s ' Christmas in India '
.
Straying a bit off topic but given a barrel that will pass its 'doable' if the workmanship is often very understated. Mine has 'watered' steel side plates & a fine twist barrel with an exotic veneered wood but now so drab &' got at' its hard to see the quality . I do have one seemingly unused / sold ? Barrel but it is not a fine quality. So many such barrels got taken to UK By the long late Major Corry out of Persia that he sold them off for 3 or 4 pounds apeice some less .Pick your take & I managed to use up a lot. Could be a crusty old fellow but he was the proper' Pukka Sahib' and a noted expert & collector . Anyway so you could get your desired ' Bundook' if not at this time by me .
Regards Rudyard

PS Tobjohn does make a good point R

 

[toot]

I have a short match lock carbine, I beleave that is what it is. and on the rear / breach top it has a 2 or 3 inch metal hollow tube on it. what is this for? is it a ghost rear sight? I run my match through it, witch is probably wrong? if it is a sight were they only used on carbines or long guns also?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Toot,
If on top of the breech it is a tube rear sight.
They were quite common on European matchlocks, not so common on Indian arms.
Can you post a picture?

 

[rickystl]

"As Rick can attest, these barrels have a rather huge powder chamber, a narrower "neck" to prevent a ball entering said chamber, then a normal straight bore to the muzzle."

As Pukka mentions above, in Post #10, the barrels have an unusual bore design. Similar to the attached detail. There is some period reference that this bore design combined with the long barrels proved more accurate at longer ranges. Possibly. But I'm more inclined to go along with another school of thought. Just as the locals continued use of these ancient matchlocks during even the 19th Century, they also made their black powder using an ancient recipe. Sometimes we call it serpentine powder. The powder seemed to require more oxygen and would not ignite reliably if compressed too tightly. Thus, the larger powder chamber providing the extra oxygen to the loose powder and forcing the gases into the narrow section under the ball. Of course, today, muzzle loading shooters would consider this configuration as a bore obstruction. And with today's more powerful corn meal style black powder, even more so. Note that even with the larger powder chamber, the barrel wall thickness at the breech is very heavy. If you wanted to shoot an original barrel today, you would want to fill the entire chamber AND narrow section with powder so the ball can be compressed against the powder as we do today. But that is a lot of powder, as Pukka can probably attest to. LOL I suppose you could use a typical load of say 70-80 grains of FFG powder and fill the rest of the chamber and narrow section with real corn meal or similar. But you would need to be sure that the powder/meal would fill to just above the top of the narrow section to seat the ball. But I just didn't feel comfortable dealing with all that.

So, I called Bobby Hoyt and sent him the barrel with a follow up letter detailing what I hoped could be done. The goal being to end up with a barrel that was straight cylinder bore with a modern type threaded breech plug that could be loaded and shot like a typical smooth bore musket. A challenge I'm sure it was. But if there was anyone who could, it would be Bobby.

I'll post before and after photos of the barrel work in my next Post.

I was also thinking of how I would go about cleaning an original bore with that narrow section opening up to the larger chamber ???

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

"As Rick can attest, these barrels have a rather huge powder chamber, a narrower "neck" to prevent a ball entering said chamber, then a normal straight bore to the muzzle."

As Pukka mentions above, in Post #10, the barrels have an unusual bore design. Similar to the attached detail. There is some period reference that this bore design combined with the long barrels proved more accurate at longer ranges. Possibly. But I'm more inclined to go along with another school of thought. Just as the locals continued use of these ancient matchlocks during even the 19th Century, they also made their black powder using an ancient recipe. Sometimes we call it serpentine powder. The powder seemed to require more oxygen and would not ignite reliably if compressed too tightly. Thus, the larger powder chamber providing the extra oxygen to the loose powder and forcing the gases into the narrow section under the ball. Of course, today, muzzle loading shooters would consider this configuration as a bore obstruction. And with today's more powerful corn meal style black powder, even more so. Note that even with the larger powder chamber, the barrel wall thickness at the breech is very heavy. If you wanted to shoot an original barrel today, you would want to fill the entire chamber AND narrow section with powder so the ball can be compressed against the powder as we do today. But that is a lot of powder, as Pukka can probably attest to. LOL I suppose you could use a typical load of say 70-80 grains of FFG powder and fill the rest of the chamber and narrow section with real corn meal or similar. But you would need to be sure that the powder/meal would fill to just above the top of the narrow section to seat the ball. But I just didn't feel comfortable dealing with all that.

So, I called Bobby Hoyt and sent him the barrel with a follow up letter detailing what I hoped could be done. The goal being to end up with a barrel that was straight cylinder bore with a modern type threaded breech plug that could be loaded and shot like a typical smooth bore musket. A challenge I'm sure it was. But if there was anyone who could, it would be Bobby.

I'll post before and after photos of the barrel work in my next Post.

I was also thinking of how I would go about cleaning an original bore with that narrow section opening up to the larger chamber ???

RickView attachment 183458

Very interesting that these guns used the equivalent of serpentine powder. It was my understanding that in Europe, the “long” barreled handgonnes and the arquebus developed because of grained powder, but this would possibly disprove that due to the very long barrels on Indian arms using the old powder.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Cleaning the powder chamber crossed my mind as well. One of today's bristle bore brushes might help, as long as you could get it out again.
Beautiful old firearms for sure, eons of history and memories of dusty marches.

 

[Rudyard]

I have a short match lock carbine, I beleave that is what it is. and on the rear / breach top it has a 2 or 3 inch metal hollow tube on it. what is this for? is it a ghost rear sight? I run my match through it, witch is probably wrong? if it is a sight were they only used on carbines or long guns also?

Dear Toot . The tube is more likely to be the sight . A pic would help. Re other guns its not like it has any fixed plan some had others not .According to the whim or fancy of the maker & his customers ideas . Even a big peep sight is some sight and I found if you find you need to alter the rear sight if with a short wooden plug it you offset the small hole it will readily turn round to alter your sighting point of aim.
Regards & Merry Xmas Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
I am pleased you mention the powder chamber!
I hav eone or two barrels that prevent the ball going within four inches of the breech. A Huge charge! The picture in one of my posts above had not much a chamber at all, so 135 to 140 grains filled it.
What we need, is a powder flask or two from some old armoury, still containing powder!
I am with you Rick in thinking that a serpentine powder must have been used,
But can give two opposing accounts regarding this!
One is of a tiger hunt in Northern India, when the English officers rifle failed to appear so he lit out after a tiger with a Shikarri and two old matchlocks.

In his account of firing at said tiger, he failed to take into account the slight delay in ignition, so his shot was not the best.
This could be interpreted as sounding like serpentine powder.
However!
Lord Eggerton speaks of irregular cavalry in the north, and how each man would discharge his matchlock at a mark whilst at the gallop, and how it was very rare for them to miss the small mark!
This does Not sound like serpentine, which we take it as somewhat slow to ignite.
So where are we? I can't even agree with myself over this.

Here is a link to the tiger hunt account;

http://jot101.com/2013/01/the-native-matchlock-tiger-hunting/

 

[Barud]

Figured you guys would find this one interesting. An interesting swivel-breech Toradar example from the Royal Armouries.

 

[Rudyard]

Rick,
I am pleased you mention the powder chamber!
I hav eone or two barrels that prevent the ball going within four inches of the breech. A Huge charge! The picture in one of my posts above had not much a chamber at all, so 135 to 140 grains filled it.
What we need, is a powder flask or two from some old armoury, still containing powder!
I am with you Rick in thinking that a serpentine powder must have been used,
But can give two opposing accounts regarding this!
One is of a tiger hunt in Northern India, when the English officers rifle failed to appear so he lit out after a tiger with a Shikarri and two old matchlocks.

In his account of firing at said tiger, he failed to take into account the slight delay in ignition, so his shot was not the best.
This could be interpreted as sounding like serpentine powder.
However!
Lord Eggerton speaks of irregular cavalry in the north, and how each man would discharge his matchlock at a mark whilst at the gallop, and how it was very rare for them to miss the small mark!
This does Not sound like serpentine, which we take it as somewhat slow to ignite.
So where are we? I can't even agree with myself over this.

Here is a link to the tiger hunt account;

http://jot101.com/2013/01/the-native-matchlock-tiger-hunting/

Rick,
I am pleased you mention the powder chamber!
I hav eone or two barrels that prevent the ball going within four inches of the breech. A Huge charge! The picture in one of my posts above had not much a chamber at all, so 135 to 140 grains filled it.
What we need, is a powder flask or two from some old armoury, still containing powder!
I am with you Rick in thinking that a serpentine powder must have been used,
But can give two opposing accounts regarding this!
One is of a tiger hunt in Northern India, when the English officers rifle failed to appear so he lit out after a tiger with a Shikarri and two old matchlocks.

In his account of firing at said tiger, he failed to take into account the slight delay in ignition, so his shot was not the best.
This could be interpreted as sounding like serpentine powder.
However!
Lord Eggerton speaks of irregular cavalry in the north, and how each man would discharge his matchlock at a mark whilst at the gallop, and how it was very rare for them to miss the small mark!
This does Not sound like serpentine, which we take it as somewhat slow to ignite.
So where are we? I can't even agree with myself over this.

Here is a link to the tiger hunt account;

http://jot101.com/2013/01/the-native-matchlock-tiger-hunting/

Pukka has raised good points I too have found some Indian matchlock's to have these long capacious chambers that put our notion of no air gap for safety's sake to question . I mentioned the Chasspott yes a breach loader very well made but this design rests on that deliberate air gap to suck out the detris of the cartridge , Not that I have had great success but mention it as an example of European thinking ... The solidly forged plugless with deliberate clearly planed anti chambers , Have us scratching our head as to why but this in clearly no accident .. I have David Harding's major four volume work of ' Small arms of the United East India Company ' I contributed to vol 2' Patterns' , Nothing scholarly just got up a missing musket for him. But Ime fairly sure & will check that there is mention of the ballistics' of Native arms versus ours or the' Companie's ( I wasn't there !) that in some cases the Native arms shot further & with more effect than the Companies troops muskets managed . I don't think it was serpentine powder but it did differ from ours . I. E. the Companies once I go through the last two volumes I might & expect to find the report concerning these long chambererd barrels . I Do know there a pig to clean.

I not long since got a huge wall gun just a king sized Torador .In to clean & examine we took it to the range and fired it once. Then ide cleaned it & checked it out , it was then cleaned and mounted on a gun shop wall think it had Jaipur export marks came with a letter supposedly signed by HRH The Maharaja of Jaipur . good selling point and probably quite true . and mounted on the gun shop wall with the jingle" We sell machine guns to matchlocks " I think I filled the long chamber with cornmeal to fill it up .You would need some sort of wad to ensure the charge sat up to the vent I reason .But Pukka has fired more of these particular guns , Keeps one in the broom cupboard to 'skunk' Skunk's its said ( We don't have Skunk's in NZ only in Parliament currently).David I think secured some of their Native powders But ide better go through his fantastic tomes to clarify what mention he does make . That original account suggest his borrowed muskets had very forgiving matchcord for his really dangerous 'deep end' hunt . Touch of the Sun ? 'Mad Dogs & Englishmen go out in the mid day Sun' or so the song goes. When out visiting broken down 'Ex Rulers' ( Our Pensions stopped after 47 when the Indians got Independence & commenced slaughtering each other other. ) Oh well you have to break eggs to make an omelet . When searching for old guns We stopped at night after our long drive from Cawnpore Ime thinking ' good' I fish out my sleeping bag but they say " Niyee!" No we can't camp here there are Dacoits & large animals perhaps so we came to a sort of fortified house with huge strong doors . My dealer had donned his np32 cal Webley in its Rexine harness ( Why Rexine !?. Cawnpore is noted for leather ) but that's India 32 is ' NP bore' IE its forbidden to have 38 or 45 cal or 303 arms since these are government calibers . ' NP' means ' non Prohibited ' bore . Just threw that in its not too pertain ant to the Matchlocks if it might fit the Officers tale .More then anon.
Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

Toot,
If on top of the breech it is a tube rear sight.
They were quite common on European matchlocks, not so common on Indian arms.
Can you post a picture?

Pukka, sorry, my lap top, is a piece of Junk that will not let me post pictures, it is an old BANG & OLFSEN. thank you for the reply. I thought that it was a ghost sight. the end of the barrel has a cannon barrel end on it. and a leather nailed on butt plate. and the pan cover snaps back when the match comes in contact with the pan, it slides forward out of the way. it has a tiller for a trigger. and around 50 cal. and a brass pin for a front sight.

 

[toot]

Dear Toot . The tube is more likely to be the sight . A pic would help. Re other guns its not like it has any fixed plan some had others not .According to the whim or fancy of the maker & his customers ideas . Even a big peep sight is some sight and I found if you find you need to alter the rear sight if with a short wooden plug it you offset the small hole it will readily turn round to alter your sighting point of aim.
Regards & Merry Xmas Rudyard

same back at you, Merry Xmas & a Happy New year. to you & your family. toot.

 

[toot]

Figured you guys would find this one interesting. An interesting swivel-breech Toradar example from the Royal Armouries.

so I guess that a swivel breach gun is not new as I thought it would be?

 

[toot]

Pukka, I beleave that my carbine is what is called a Petronel. is it common for them to have a sliding pan cover? it is pulled back to cover the pan and snaps forward just as the match hits the pan. does this method have a particular name? was it a common feature? toot.

 

[Barud]

so I guess that a swivel breach gun is not new as I thought it would be?

They date all the way back to the 17th century (although I'm sure there's examples from the 16th as well), but honestly, this is the only example from the Islamicate World that I know of.

 

[TobJohn]

Pukka has raised good points I too have found some Indian matchlock's to have these long capacious chambers that put our notion of no air gap for safety's sake to question . I mentioned the Chasspott yes a breach loader very well made but this design rests on that deliberate air gap to suck out the detris of the cartridge , Not that I have had great success but mention it as an example of European thinking ... The solidly forged plugless with deliberate clearly planed anti chambers , Have us scratching our head as to why but this in clearly no accident .. I have David Harding's major four volume work of ' Small arms of the United East India Company ' I contributed to vol 2' Patterns' , Nothing scholarly just got up a missing musket for him. But Ime fairly sure & will check that there is mention of the ballistics' of Native arms versus ours or the' Companie's ( I wasn't there !) that in some cases the Native arms shot further & with more effect than the Companies troops muskets managed . I don't think it was serpentine powder but it did differ from ours . I. E. the Companies once I go through the last two volumes I might & expect to find the report concerning these long chambererd barrels . I Do know there a pig to clean.

I not long since got a huge wall gun just a king sized Torador .In to clean & examine we took it to the range and fired it once. Then ide cleaned it & checked it out , it was then cleaned and mounted on a gun shop wall think it had Jaipur export marks came with a letter supposedly signed by HRH The Maharaja of Jaipur . good selling point and probably quite true . and mounted on the gun shop wall with the jingle" We sell machine guns to matchlocks " I think I filled the long chamber with cornmeal to fill it up .You would need some sort of wad to ensure the charge sat up to the vent I reason .But Pukka has fired more of these particular guns , Keeps one in the broom cupboard to 'skunk' Skunk's its said ( We don't have Skunk's in NZ only in Parliament currently).David I think secured some of their Native powders But ide better go through his fantastic tomes to clarify what mention he does make . That original account suggest his borrowed muskets had very forgiving matchcord for his really dangerous 'deep end' hunt . Touch of the Sun ? 'Mad Dogs & Englishmen go out in the mid day Sun' or so the song goes. When out visiting broken down 'Ex Rulers' ( Our Pensions stopped after 47 when the Indians got Independence & commenced slaughtering each other other. ) Oh well you have to break eggs to make an omelet . When searching for old guns We stopped at night after our long drive from Cawnpore Ime thinking ' good' I fish out my sleeping bag but they say " Niyee!" No we can't camp here there are Dacoits & large animals perhaps so we came to a sort of fortified house with huge strong doors . My dealer had donned his np32 cal Webley in its Rexine harness ( Why Rexine !?. Cawnpore is noted for leather ) but that's India 32 is ' NP bore' IE its forbidden to have 38 or 45 cal or 303 arms since these are government calibers . ' NP' means ' non Prohibited ' bore . Just threw that in its not too pertain ant to the Matchlocks if it might fit the Officers tale .More then anon.
Regards Rudyard

Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, by Bert S Hall, describes european bombards having an air gap left in the chamber when loading. The author’s claim was that it allowed the initial ignition to lift the rest of the Serpentine powder and provide a better path for the flame to travel. No idea how much truth there is to it, but clearly multiple examples are showing that more research needs to be done.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Barud,
I have seen toradors with a revolving chamber, but this is the very first turn over I have seen! Thank you for posting and attaching the photo.
Is there any provenance for this piece?
I ask, as it seems it may upset my theory, LOl!
I had thought that the hamsa on the 'gables' of the wrist area was unique to Jaipur, as in my searches I had only seen them on arms from Jaipour and Amber forts.
This one appears to have this feature. Hard to tell but looks like it!
But the trigger looks different to what I had seen from these forts, plus decoration somewhat different.
So, always with things from India, "Expect the unexpected!".

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Toot,
On any matchlock, a pan cover that slides away automatically is rather rare!
If a petronel and your computer decides to cooperate, some pictures under a different heading would be fantastic!

 

[TobJohn]

Barud,
I have seen toradors with a revolving chamber, but this is the very first turn over I have seen! Thank you for posting and attaching the photo.
Is there any provenance for this piece?
I ask, as it seems it may upset my theory, LOl!
I had thought that the hamsa on the 'gables' of the wrist area was unique to Jaipur, as in my searches I had only seen them on arms from Jaipour and Amber forts.
This one appears to have this feature. Hard to tell but looks like it!
But the trigger looks different to what I had seen from these forts, plus decoration somewhat different.
So, always with things from India, "Expect the unexpected!".

All the best,
Richard.

If the information in the Royal Armories digital collection is lacking, I’ve had great success emailing them. One of the only museums who emails back…

 

[rickystl]

Pukka: Thanks for your reply on Post #48. And thanks for the Link to the tiger hunt. Great reading.

Of course, I don't really know the original, intended reason for the breech design of the barrels. I'm only speculating. But it seems all (if not most) were made this way. I'm still looking for the information I have on the eye witness account of how these barrels were made. I should find it soon. But I do recall while the information was written in more precise detail, there was no mention of the larger chamber and narrow section. But the author did not seem to be a gun enthusiast himself, and probably didn't notice to ask. But it's fascinating reading how the barrels were made using primitive methods even for that period.

Rick