Traditional M/L Guns from India

[rickystl]

Hi Mr. T

WOW!!! What a cool and interesting gun. If I were still in my working years, and adding to my collection, I would have bid on this one. Has a European style stock and a genuine EIC flintlock. The swamped octagon barrel, with a standard type breech plug, and clear markings on the left, rear flat tells me the barrel is European. The gold overlay on the barrel looks South India to me. An interesting mix of cultures. I this case, I wonder if the barrel is rifled or smooth bore ? I would guess the latter. Thanks for posting. Bet this one turns up for sale again next month at the antique arms show in Baltimore.

There are examples of traditional India stocked guns with a flintlock. But they are considered rare.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Yes there are a few. A forum member I think has one that has duel ignition, a flintlock combined with a matchlock. I saw one converted to percussion!

That would be one of mine. This one being from the Coorg region of Southwestern India. It's proof that even with a flintlock, the locals were not ready to fully discard their matchlocks.

Rick

 

[cyten]

You'll have to forgive me if the following doesn't belong here as traditional. But I've seen this (presumably) Indian barrel stocked up in the European fashion with EIC lock on the saleroom.

It did get me thinking though, are there any examples of traditional stocks with flintlocks? I've seen a lot of afghan jezails with English locks, but no Jaipur style stocks with flints.

This is a gorgeous piece and is coming up to auction in 3 or 4 days in the UK (unfortunate for some of our American collectors) with a fairly low starting bid of £320, I wonder if it will get picked up for a decent price

 

[Barud]

It did get me thinking though, are there any examples of traditional stocks with flintlocks? I've seen a lot of afghan jezails with English locks, but no Jaipur style stocks with flints.

I've seen a couple, besides rickystl's dual ignition one. This one in the Royal Armouries is the closest one that came to mind, but you can find a couple more on the internet. There's one in my gun photo archive but I can't be bothered to find it.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Rick,
Thank you for starting this thread!
Will be back as soon as I get freed up a bit!
John,
Google" Moghal miniature paintings, war and hunting", or Mughal matchlock, or some such.
There are beautiful and very amusing paintings of the use of toradors in some of the miniatures!
Yes, we will likely come across folk who say the right spelling is Toradar, but in a country the size of India, there were many names for these guns.
Thank you again Rick, these guns hold a special interest to me.View attachment 182872View attachment 182873

The guy in the bottom picture has it about right, using it as a club

 

[rickystl]

This is a gorgeous piece and is coming up to auction in 3 or 4 days in the UK (unfortunate for some of our American collectors) with a fairly low starting bid of £320, I wonder if it will get picked up for a decent price

So, it is in a UK auction. Yes, will be interesting to see what the hammer price will be. And yes, the auction being in the UK pretty much eliminates any experienced USA bidders. It's just not worth the hassle - and expense - trying to get even an original muzzle loader shipped from the UK. Too bad. My guess is, that it will sell for something like half of what it would go for here in the States.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I've seen a couple, besides rickystl's dual ignition one. This one in the Royal Armouries is the closest one that came to mind, but you can find a couple more on the internet. There's one in my gun photo archive but I can't be bothered to find it.

Hi Barud

That's a good example. I've seen photos of a couple guns from Sindh with flintlocks. But all the rest are either matchlock or percussion. They are considered quite rare in flintlock.

Rick

 

[MrTwelvette]

Good afternoon. I've just purchased this at auction (will pick up on friday) I've made a point of keeping the saleroom pics because my own camera isn't great.
I don't suppose anyone can tell me if this is indeed indian and where abouts it might be from? It's about 60 inches overall, not sure of the bore size

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Definitely from India, and a very nice piece, MrT!

Will have to look at a book to get a idea of area, but either from the Deccan or up in Rajasthan I would Guess. (Guess being the operative term!)

Congratulations, Very Nice!

 

[rickystl]

Hi Mr. T

Congratulations. A very nice example. Much agree with Pukka above. Probably from Central or Northern India. The wonderful chiseling decoration on the barrel with it's complimentary iron side plates. Even the top of the pan cover shows this same decorative work. A routine oil cleaning of the iron parts should produce an even better effect. I've always thought that the decorative iron mounts on these Torador muskets look the best. Even better than brass or silver mounts. (I believe Pukka owns an iron mounted example.) Even the decorative ramrod is well done. Nice the see the cone to snuff the match cord is still attached. These are often missing.
There appears to be a split in the stock where the ramrod enters. But looks like an easy fix. The one photo of a barrel band appears to be wrapped, copper wire (?) IMHO this Torador would be worth a small amount of restoration to look in great condition.
Again, congratulations. A very nice example. And, welcome to the Forum.

Rick

 

[cyten]

If you skip to 22:07 you can see a nice percussion sindh gun being loaded and fired



And here at 2:56 a Torador

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Well Cyten,
You found me!
We hold this shoot here on the farm each year, from I think 2006.

There are YouTubes available for a good few years.
Rob does a very good job.

The gun Martyn was firing (Mary Rose style) was made by our very own Rudyard.
Jason's Sindh is a nice one.

 

[MrTwelvette]

Hi Mr. T

Congratulations. A very nice example. Much agree with Pukka above. Probably from Central or Northern India. The wonderful chiseling decoration on the barrel with it's complimentary iron side plates. Even the top of the pan cover shows this same decorative work. A routine oil cleaning of the iron parts should produce an even better effect. I've always thought that the decorative iron mounts on these Torador muskets look the best. Even better than brass or silver mounts. (I believe Pukka owns an iron mounted example.) Even the decorative ramrod is well done. Nice the see the cone to snuff the match cord is still attached. These are often missing.
There appears to be a split in the stock where the ramrod enters. But looks like an easy fix. The one photo of a barrel band appears to be wrapped, copper wire (?) IMHO this Torador would be worth a small amount of restoration to look in great condition.
Again, congratulations. A very nice example. And, welcome to the Forum.

Rick

Uù

Hi Mr. T

Congratulations. A very nice example. Much agree with Pukka above. Probably from Central or Northern India. The wonderful chiseling decoration on the barrel with it's complimentary iron side plates. Even the top of the pan cover shows this same decorative work. A routine oil cleaning of the iron parts should produce an even better effect. I've always thought that the decorative iron mounts on these Torador muskets look the best. Even better than brass or silver mounts. (I believe Pukka owns an iron mounted example.) Even the decorative ramrod is well done. Nice the see the cone to snuff the match cord is still attached. These are often missing.
There appears to be a split in the stock where the ramrod enters. But looks like an easy fix. The one photo of a barrel band appears to be wrapped, copper wire (?) IMHO this Torador would be worth a small amount of restoration to look in great condition.
Again, congratulations. A very nice example. And, welcome to the Forum.

Rick

Thanks Rick.

Now that I've got the gun, I can report that a quick oil clean has improved the look of the iron. I can't exactly say what the barrel bands are made from. It's organic, one strand has split and it looks almost like paper, vellum maybe? I have no idea. The bands seem to have been painted in a dope or lacquer after wrapping.


The split in the stock by the ramrod seems to have been caused by someone bending the ramrod then stuffing it back in, ramrod is now nice and straight.

I must say I'm delighted with it. The bore looks nice, not immaculate but I've seen worse bores in sxs shotguns offered for sale. The chamber constriction is crisp and round, and the touchhole is narrower than I expected. I don't think it's seen much use. The woodwork has gotten dry and cracked with age especially on the foreend (if thats the correct term) and I expect if I ever slit the bands to remove the barrel the stock would come apart along its old glue lines. but it's all there

 

[rickystl]

Hi Mr. T

Good job. Regular gun oil and 0000 steel wool often does wonders for old iron. The barrel bands may be old leather or rattan. That would also be common. Brass and iron were also used. Maybe one day you will decide to make a shooter with it. LOL From the photos you provided, it appears you may have a barrel that has a bore that is more traditional cylinder bore from muzzle to breach (?) And not the often encountered so-called anti-chamber. This would be worth investigating if you decide to shoot the gun.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Cyten

Yes, those Alberta videos are great fun. I was fortunate to have been able to visit with Pukka one time while I was in Alberta on business. We had lunch together. Didn't get much time as it was his busy time of the year and I had to travel back to St. Louis. I could have talked to him for hours - days even. LOL

Great seeing the video of Pukka shooting his Torador. He beat me to the draw. LOL Also nice seeing his buddy shooting his original Sindh rifle. I wonder if it is indeed rifled, or a smooth bore ? Most of these Sindh percussion guns show up with rifled barrels.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I've seen a couple, besides rickystl's dual ignition one. This one in the Royal Armouries is the closest one that came to mind, but you can find a couple more on the internet. There's one in my gun photo archive but I can't be bothered to find it.

The Indian Toradors and Sindh origin guns with flintlocks are considered rare among collectors. In the case of the Sindh guns it seems they jumped from matchlock to percussion, and skipped the flintlock period. LOL Like Japan.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
The Sindh gun is a smooth bore.
If I remember right, about .45 cal.
I enjoyed our visit when you were up here Rick!
Now retired, it may be a while before we see you!

 

[SwampBilly]

I understand muzzleloading gun uses still very much prevalent in India.

 

[Rudyard]

Well Mr T,
What I do is just that, my idea how to clean these rather mysterious guns!
I plug the touchhole and jam kitchen over the touchhole using the pan cover to hold it in place, then I get some water down the barrel and tip it out a couple of times.
then, using a rag on a cleaning worm, I (with more water in the barrel) pump ir up and down the bore a bit and dump it out.
I then use paper towel on the worm, more or less down and back up the bore till they come out clean,
The anti-chamber can normally be cleaned with a wool mop and rinsed until it looks clean.
Pan and such can be cleaned up using a damp rag, and dry rag or paper down the bore to dry it all out. pumping it up and down will blow air through the touchhole helping to dry the anti-chamber.
When all dry, oil it with a another wool mop, and stand on the muzzle so surplus can drain back out.

Hope this helps, Mr T. but others may have better ideas.

Best,
R.

No I've no better plan and do much the same. Not the cow dung though wonder if bunny currants might work cant even consider Hedgehog poo ( sticks like tar, double Yuk but could be the plums we have falling like rain at present).it being autumn down here .
Regards Rudyard

I understand muzzleloading gun uses still very much prevalent in India.

Dear Billy I spent time in Utter Pradesh, Cawnpore region the Mls being cheaper to buy .shoot & get license. So where still in demand from what ide call' Village India ' This was c 1973/ 4 but I doubt its much altered in the Rural regions seeming not to change much since the Raj. Not that I go back that far . Regards Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rudyard,
What year was it you came over for our shoot?
I forget!