Traditional muzzleloading on the wane?

[jamesthomas]

Me thinks that one sub-forum for modern MLers would engender 2 possible scenarios....

The first would be that some of those using modern MLers would "see the light" and become traditionalists. Wouldn't hurt at all to have some "converts".

The 2nd scenario w/ a modern MLer sub-forum would be that the traditionalists now would have a venue to "heap their scorn" on their "modern brethren" thereby eliminating any chance whatsoever of any "conversions".

Of course w/ all due respect to Claude, this "new forum" would require his approval and he probably wouldn't want to "dilute" the Forum.

I have my opinion on this....what is yours?....Fred

Fred, I think IF Claude put in a sub-forum for in-lines he would have some strict rules for it, one of which would be "No Negative talk" If you don't have anything helpful to say then stay off the "in-line forum".

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Many in-liners are drawn for the extra weeks of hunting, but also because those guns resemble the guns they already shoot. Not some alien medieval thing with a pointy brass butt plate and 38 inch full length forestock. Something that isn't cantankerous with a mind of it's own, like a rock knocker.

In addition, many have been sold a bill of goods about the capabilities of traditional guns to kill deer or shoot accurately, or perhaps some are just too lazy to even consider learning the ways to coax an accurate shot from a flinter.

I made the comment about hunting deer with a wheel lock or matchlock and a newly retired life long career Game Commission employee said the very idea was ridiculous.

In the late 1960's when a group proposed a flint season in PA, they met with the same attitude, but were able to over come it. And now we have a strictly flint season for three weeks after Christmas. It is that flint season which keeps the sales of black powder and flinters going in PA.

I made the mistake on another forum of referring to in-lines as "easy button" muzzleloaders and reaped days of unkind remarks.

 

[cynthialee]

Well the best way to avoid that type of issue is to just keep it to yourself.

I almost bought an inline when I decided pistols were not enough and I needed a rifle. But I didn't due to hunting regulations.
Had I went that route I would probably have given up after I had some of the typical issues they have. Had I went that route I wouldn't have been drawn to this forum when I got my hunting rifle. Then I wouldn't have made the friends I have made here. I would not have hunted with Matt85 last year. I would not have had Matt85 out for this years Modern hunt.
I would have seriously missed out.

It is my humble opinion that this no inline policy is a disservice to the shooting community and there are likely people out there who are not learning good shooting due to the policy.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Fred, I think IF Claude put in a sub-forum for in-lines he would have some strict rules for it, one of which would be "No Negative talk" If you don't have anything helpful to say then stay off the "in-line forum".

We remind members that that pertains to every forum, but as we see, it doesn't work. :wink:

 

[thatoneguy82]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/284572/post/new/#NEW

Case in point to illustrate some of our difficulties. Its a locked thread strarted by a first time posting new member about aparently prohibited projos and inlines are also mentioned.

 

[Claude Mathis]

It is my humble opinion that this no inline policy is a disservice to the shooting community and there are likely people out there who are not learning good shooting due to the policy.

People join this forum, knowing what it offers. There are plenty of forums out there that allow all firearms.

Should I provide a center-fire forum so those people will be attracted to inlines, and in turn be attracted to flintlocks? :wink:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Me thinks that one sub-forum for modern MLers would engender 2 possible scenarios....

The first would be that some of those using modern MLers would "see the light" and become traditionalists. Wouldn't hurt at all to have some "converts".

The 2nd scenario w/ a modern MLer sub-forum would be that the traditionalists now would have a venue to "heap their scorn" on their "modern brethren" thereby eliminating any chance whatsoever of any "conversions".

When the Forum started, thirteen years ago, I offered an inline category. It didn’t work, due to your second scenario. Even when you suggest it, you use phrases like, “See the light” and “some converts”. That illustrates the prevailing attitude among many traditionalists, that those “other people” are on the wrong path and they need to be saved. I know you used the terms in a positive way, but many don’t.

I have no desire to convert anyone or try to be all things to all shooters. “I built it and they will come” - or not, it’s up to them. :wink:

 

[Snakebite]

Me thinks that one sub-forum for modern MLers would engender 2 possible scenarios....

The first would be that some of those using modern MLers would "see the light" and become traditionalists. Wouldn't hurt at all to have some "converts".

The 2nd scenario w/ a modern MLer sub-forum would be that the traditionalists now would have a venue to "heap their scorn" on their "modern brethren" thereby eliminating any chance whatsoever of any "conversions".

Of course w/ all due respect to Claude, this "new forum" would require his approval and he probably wouldn't want to "dilute" the Forum.

I have my opinion on this....what is yours?....Fred

Fred, I think IF Claude put in a sub-forum for in-lines he would have some strict rules for it, one of which would be "No Negative talk" If you don't have anything helpful to say then stay off the "in-line forum".

That would be a full time job for the Moderators!

 

[RedFeather]

That's basically it. Where are they going to get good help? Simple things like it's better to use loose powder (cheaper and more accurate), you don't really need shotgun primers, try to turn the gun into a centerfire, etc. I cannot imagine how some of these guys suffer through "recommended loads" in a seven pound gun. That, alone, is enough to turn off a newbie for life. And there was a recent thread where a newcomer said he had three guns, one of which was a break open with a dangerous breech plug. I had to private message him about it because we could not discuss that particular gun. BTW, I've even seen the odd ball, historically contemporary inline edited out.

 

That's basically it. Where are they going to get good help? Simple things like it's better to use loose powder (cheaper and more accurate), you don't really need shotgun primers, try to turn the gun into a centerfire, etc. I cannot imagine how some of these guys suffer through "recommended loads" in a seven pound gun.

I guess people have guns that are so unique, there's NO information about them on the internet? Hard to believe.

Maybe you and Cynthialee can start an inline forum to help those people?

 

[tatman731]

Totally the wrong attitude towards two members of this forum. Because they dont believe exactly as you maybe they should move on. Thats great.

 

[tatman731]

If everybody did everything the way I guess we would all be shooting Hawkens or Besses. Having your own likes and dislikes is what this country was founded on.Its nice to know that a select few know everything and everybody else need to bow to them. Sounds like the whole King and Queen thing to me. I really enjoy this forum but I do wonder how long it will last if that attitude is allowed to continue. Hopefully it will be here a long time. Just like a certain builder being banned because of his opinion.

 

[galamb]

On the issues themselves I know exactly where I stand. A muzzle loader is a muzzle loader regardless of what it looks like on the outside and where the hammer is located and I wouldn't "slight" of "name call" a guy or a gal if they want to use one of those that resemble a zip gun.

Certainly, try and instill an interest in a side hammer either cap/flint and hope that a few join the more traditional sport which will help preserve it for us all.

But, I kinda agree that with respect to this site, with it's current configuration, it's there to discuss everything "traditional".

The definition of traditional in this case loosely refers to anything with a hammer on the side shooting a lead projectile.

If the scope of inclusion becomes too large it could turn into nothing more than mass confusion with nothing more than name calling and preaching.

So if I want to know how to work on my GMC truck, I go to a GM forum and if I want to know what kind of black powder to use I go to a "traditional" ML forum.

Having said all that I'm still not sure about this - say this site was around 150 years ago (ok fantasy yes, but bear with me).

And folk hero/legend Kit Carson was a regular contributor. For years he had gone on about his early flintlocks, then proudly showed off his, now famous, Hawken caplock rifle.

Would his post be locked/deleted and would he be outcast as a leper when he tried to show off his 1866 Springfield breech loader?

Not really looking for answer on that, but it does play on my mind in light of the ongoing discussion..

 

[Coot]

Fred, I think IF Claude put in a sub-forum for in-lines he would have some strict rules for it, one of which would be "No Negative talk" If you don't have anything helpful to say then stay off the "in-line forum".

We remind members that that pertains to every forum, but as we see, it doesn't work. :wink:

It does not even have to be negative to be seen that way. When someone says a round ball is perfectly good to take down a deer, it is simply an observation, not a statement that slugs are no good. Same thing with the perpetual HC/PC pro/con comments. I think we would soon have the "traditional" group being called elite out of touch snobs by the "in-line" group who would then be targeted with "ignorant & lazy" comments. I don't think that the Forum needs more "drama".

 

[jethro224]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/284572/post/new/#NEW

Case in point to illustrate some of our difficulties. Its a locked thread strarted by a first time posting new member about aparently prohibited projos and inlines are also mentioned.

What difficulties? All new members agree to the forum rules when they sign up. The list of forum rules is not that long or complicated. His topic broke 2 rules so I locked it.

What you didn't see was that, immediately after I locked the topic, I sent him a friendly PT. Still haven't heard back from him but maybe I will.

It's a good idea to read the rules before agreeing to them. It's a good idea to try and follow the rules you agreed to (especially your first posts). It's a good idea to review the rules every once in a while too, sometimes they might change, sometimes we might forget a few.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showrules.php

 

[FishDFly]

Huh, thought this was about TML and it's decline.

There has been a lot of factual information presented about the decline of TML, thus far I agree with and some straying along the way which is not relevant.

Claude does a good job of supporting TML with his efforts and dollars. Claude changing his format is not gong to change TML in this country at all. I would not ask him to change his values from what he believes in and values.

The decline of some things just cannot be reversed.

 

Totally the wrong attitude towards two members of this forum. Because they dont believe exactly as you maybe they should move on. Thats great.

Nice spin. I never said "move on" or leave here. I said start a forum. Nobody has to move anywhere to start something.

This is what happens when people read into what is written, instead of just reading the words. :shake:

 

[Claude Mathis]

So if I want to know how to work on my GMC truck, I go to a GM forum and if I want to know what kind of black powder to use I go to a "traditional" ML forum.

That's pretty much the idea behind anything specialized. I belong to a Harley-Davidson forum. I go there because I'm interested in Harleys. If they open it up to Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, etc., then it's a general "motorcycle" forum - not a Harley forum. It would lose the sense of camaraderie that is important to many.

Like I said, people join here because of what the Forum is. If they don't like it - they don't join. I'm okay with that. If people join and they later decide they don't want to be here anymore, I'm okay with that too.

I'm providing a place for people to discuss traditional muzzleloading - that's it - no converting, no trying to make the world a better, safer place, no trying to be all things to all shooters.

 

[RedFeather]

Yeah, I kind of agree. Running a forum is a lot like herding cats. Hard enough without corralling dogs, too. I imagine that's what it might gravitate to. It's such a darned shame that, unlike a Harley forum, those which attact inline shooters usually have it as a sub forum and it's maybe 80% parroting of each other with little beyond the typical shooting mag hype (which is, in turn, support for paid ad subscribers.)

Cynthia and me start an inline forum? I can't speak for her but no thank you please! That would be like the sick leading the blind. :grin:

 

[Sean Gadhar]

I'm providing a place for people to discuss traditional muzzleloading - that's it - no converting, no trying to make the world a better, safer place, no trying to be all things to all shooters.

:thumbsup: 1st if nothing is changed I for one am pretty darn happy with the forum as is.

My only thought is what do we do with the people who are A)new and B) asking a Q that dose not fit our rules.

As I'm sure there are inline forums (I just Google it :grin: ) could/should we see if we could mutually refer questioners?

Also as a service could we offer to move the offending Question to some corner, lock it but leave it up for a week or so, so that members can read it, and if they can help they could PM the answer but not post it in open forum.

As I said I for one am pretty darn happy with the forum as is. But if we get questions about inlines I bet they get questions about Traditionals