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So why not open this forum to all guns? Do you think that would promote traditional muzzleloading? :wink:galamb said:
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I started out with wanting a new deer season to hunt and I do have 4 inlines. I certainly have more traditional guns and simply love them. But the inlines do have a place in helping introduce people into our sport.
I host a rendezvous for the past 16 years on my farm. All are welcomed. Give the inline guy a traditional rifle to shoot and watch him smile. Next thing you know they show up next year with a traditional rifle.
People do have an elitist attitude and think that their way is the only way.
I have been shooting at Friendship for the past 6 years or so. Came as a stranger to everyone. It took a couple of years to break into a "group"
I can relate several stories of very unfriendly behavior at Friendship. A couple from this past year.
My son likes to shoot shotguns, so we spend more time there than the rifle line. We have no friends at the shotgun area. Some people we met were very nice. Several were very rude. If it had been my first trip to Friendship, I would never go back.
The way my 14 year old was treated by some of the "old" guys was shameful. Heck of a way to welcome a new shooter.
I could not wait to get back to the long range area and my friends.
Fleener
I host a rendezvous for the past 16 years on my farm. All are welcomed. Give the inline guy a traditional rifle to shoot and watch him smile. Next thing you know they show up next year with a traditional rifle.
People do have an elitist attitude and think that their way is the only way.
I have been shooting at Friendship for the past 6 years or so. Came as a stranger to everyone. It took a couple of years to break into a "group"
I can relate several stories of very unfriendly behavior at Friendship. A couple from this past year.
My son likes to shoot shotguns, so we spend more time there than the rifle line. We have no friends at the shotgun area. Some people we met were very nice. Several were very rude. If it had been my first trip to Friendship, I would never go back.
The way my 14 year old was treated by some of the "old" guys was shameful. Heck of a way to welcome a new shooter.
I could not wait to get back to the long range area and my friends.
Fleener
Kylongrifle
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Its a shame but Ive seen that before, Ive seen it blacksmiths and knifemakers before. On a side note trappers meets were the best bunch of people overall Ive been around for welcoming new guys,
RedFeather
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Traditional muzzleloading in decline? The whole shooting sport is fading. Ranges are closing, hunting land dimishing in acreage every year. The number of hunters is dropping. TML is a piece of the total picture, although inlines, coupled with a weaker dollar have taken their toll. When I started, you could get a decent production muzzle loader for a fraction of the price of a Remington 700 or Winchester. Those days are long gone. Why many here shop used.
Grahm;
It's a TRAP!
:shake:
But Fleener made me think of something...
Can, should, we consider "in-lines" Muzzleloading For Dummies? May be the "gateway drug" to real blackpowder arms and history... Are we no longer able to pretend they don't exist (look what T/C did, and CVA) and create a secluded forum for them here with the hope that they will expand their horizons rather than dilute the rest of our discipline!?
Something to think about...
Even folk who shoot synthetic-stocked stainless steel black-powder-pellet-fed breechloaders with scopes may be able to be made to see the light beyond their illuminated reticles.
It's a TRAP!
:shake:
But Fleener made me think of something...
Can, should, we consider "in-lines" Muzzleloading For Dummies? May be the "gateway drug" to real blackpowder arms and history... Are we no longer able to pretend they don't exist (look what T/C did, and CVA) and create a secluded forum for them here with the hope that they will expand their horizons rather than dilute the rest of our discipline!?
Something to think about...
Even folk who shoot synthetic-stocked stainless steel black-powder-pellet-fed breechloaders with scopes may be able to be made to see the light beyond their illuminated reticles.
nchawkeye
58 Cal.
LorD 1776 said:
He has one!!! Just didn't have it on...
Jumpshot
54 Cal.
Idaho Ron said:
Me.
Jumpshot said:
So... One! :thumbsup: Not countin' long ago dead guys.
:grin:
I still find it kinda funny that I wasn't allowed to have a .22 when I was a kid 'cause they were "too dangerous" but they gave me a shotgun. :idunno:
Finally got the .22 when I was about 30+- after A whole bunch of different calibers/gauges. But, yeah, I went thru the whole lineup before I ever settled on flintlocks.
Whenever there is a modern muzzleloader (or CF) shooter at the range while I am there I offer to let them try my traditional guns. Lots of times they do. Plenty of times they like 'em.
Once, at Friendship, I shot the woodswalk using my GPR capgun along with 2 guys using modern/scoped rifles. They started out kinda ribbing me but, by the time we were done and I scored better than them, they changed their minds about "those old school unreliable open-sighted guns".
I love shootin' against those guys offhand at reasonably close range. And I agree that some of them could be converted to traditional if given the chance.
I also know what would happen if the forum allowed their discussion here...
Jumpshot
54 Cal.
Jethro224 said:
I just realized I think I misunderstood what he meant. Of course I have other guns now (centerfires, rimfires). What I meant is that my first rifle was a flintlock, and it's still my favorite type of gun to shoot. I didn't mean I've never shot anything but flintlocks.
You mean inlines? They were allowed here a long time ago. But a lot of tension always resulted.
Jason Lewis
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i believe there is still hope for TML. especially after taking my 8 y/o nephew pheasant hunting over the thanksgiving weekend. he watched me shoot a rooster with my old percussion 13ga. later on he says "you have a cool gun uncle Jason." all things come in cycles, and TML will come back again.
RedFeather
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About not tapping in to the inline crowd for converts, that's a good point. Not all are just buying them for an extra hunting season. Consider what the Average Joe has available in the big box stores compared to twenty or thirty years ago. In some cases he has no alternative.
I have one such rifle and when I go looking for information or help it's a far cry from the quality support received here. Mostly see advice on how to duplicate .30-06 ballistics while dislocating your shoulder. It would be nice to see a first class forum for these owners. If only to show them that they can build and fine tune loads instead of the usual two/three pellets and a pistol bullet combinations which are way more than necessary.
I have one such rifle and when I go looking for information or help it's a far cry from the quality support received here. Mostly see advice on how to duplicate .30-06 ballistics while dislocating your shoulder. It would be nice to see a first class forum for these owners. If only to show them that they can build and fine tune loads instead of the usual two/three pellets and a pistol bullet combinations which are way more than necessary.
Yep! 100% :thumbsup:Jumpshot said:
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fleener said:
You ever go to one with no kids or young couples in it?
Shotgun232
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True enough, however I do not know anyone my age who is into firearms. I am sure there are younger people who are into firearms, and they would be more likely to be into TML. Also a lot of the younger generation has less disposable income than the older generation, thus they would be less likely to be into an expensive sport.
Most of my income goes to paying for my collage, room and board, and then finally the fun stuff. The only way I can do is this because I work a lot and thus make a lot. Most of the people I know my age are not working.
Most of my income goes to paying for my collage, room and board, and then finally the fun stuff. The only way I can do is this because I work a lot and thus make a lot. Most of the people I know my age are not working.
Shotgun232
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I this exactly what I see happening to people my age, however I am just viewing the collage age people....
Me thinks that one sub-forum for modern MLers would engender 2 possible scenarios....
The first would be that some of those using modern MLers would "see the light" and become traditionalists. Wouldn't hurt at all to have some "converts".
The 2nd scenario w/ a modern MLer sub-forum would be that the traditionalists now would have a venue to "heap their scorn" on their "modern brethren" thereby eliminating any chance whatsoever of any "conversions".
Of course w/ all due respect to Claude, this "new forum" would require his approval and he probably wouldn't want to "dilute" the Forum.
I have my opinion on this....what is yours?....Fred
The first would be that some of those using modern MLers would "see the light" and become traditionalists. Wouldn't hurt at all to have some "converts".
The 2nd scenario w/ a modern MLer sub-forum would be that the traditionalists now would have a venue to "heap their scorn" on their "modern brethren" thereby eliminating any chance whatsoever of any "conversions".
Of course w/ all due respect to Claude, this "new forum" would require his approval and he probably wouldn't want to "dilute" the Forum.
I have my opinion on this....what is yours?....Fred
Dave Rosenthal
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I'm really enjoying this thread on ways and thoughts to make the hobby better, and I want to first thank Claude and the rest of the Mods for not shutting it down. And Kudos to Jack for posting in the first place!
First-off I want to say I'm sorry to hear of the rudeness at the shotgun range. I've never been to Friendship, and I have NO intention of ever going, BUT I do support the NMLRA and I'm a newly appointed Field Rep for Central NJ. Folks that gave your Boy a hard time should be ashamed of themselves, and KARMA will eventually bite them in the ass! Glad to hear your son stuck with it and you had some wonderful father & son experiences none the less! My fondest memories of my (now 24 year old) son are at the BP clubs we shot at together. I introduced him to his .22 at age 4, made him a Life Member of the NRA by age 5 and he has a life-long hobby and several guns to his credit. And he LOVES shooting black powder (as long as I do most of the clean-up, lol)!
I too came into firearms via the .22 LR route, bought a bunch of centerfire stuff (pistols, rifles, shotguns), then re-discovered my deceased Dad's Cap & Ball. Took it to a BP league match and was LOANED a rifle & everything to make it work. In less than a 20-shot match I was HOOKED, and the rest, as they say, is history!
One of the clubs I belong to does all sorts of league discipline shoots from USPSA runnin' & gunnin' to Black Powder, with up to three matches running simultaneously at the same range complex. So we always draw some interest from passers-by and try to put a rifle in their hands. We make lots of folks smile and some come back with their own equipment. As the club grows, so does the BP league. We usually have to hold multiple relays to get everyone a chance to shoot, since we can only accommodate 10 shooters on the firing line per relay.
We have kids, women, average Joe's and some old-timers, so it's quite a mix, and we all learn from each other. One of our women is going for NRA Distinguished Expert in ML Rifle, and she will be the first female in the Country to hold that title!
Although we allow both cartridge BP firearms (most use caplocks) and inlines, hardly any inlines show-up since most models require cleaning after 4 ignitions, and our COF is a 20 shot aggregate. Between the amount of shooting and the expense$$$ of supplies (pellets, and the projectiles they fire), some of the folks who come out with their inlines have switched-over to PRB, and even more have bought a used Hawken-style gun. So from personal eye-witness experience I can tell you all that muzzleloading in NJ is GROWING!!
The "trick" to growing the league is to have friendly & knowledgeable folks RUNNIN' IT, and WE DO! We share supplies, hold social events like this Saturday's Christmas Party, bring charcoal grills to some of the warm weather matches, help repair guns, demonstrate effective cleaning techniques, and we also have a little fun bustin' balls too, so it all contributes to effective team-building. One of the major factors in growing our league was the adoption of the Winchester NRA Qualification Program for Muzzleloading, administered locally by our league chairman. Earning yer "stripes" and advancing through the various levels of marksmanship towards Distinguished Expert teaches each shooter how to "listen" to their rifle or pistol and the scores go up exponentially not only at the Qualifiers but also our regular league matches. Seeing constant improvement in one's scores keeps the interest level at its' peak, and "infects" new league members with the "bug" that is muzzleloading.
What I've just typed is but some of what ONE of the TWO clubs (that I shoot BP at) does to find & keep members. I'll report later on the club #2, so this post isn't a new version of War & Peace, lol! But for now, muzzleloading is EXPLODING in NJ!
Dave
NRA Distinguished Expert in ML Rifle & Pistol
NRA Life Member
NMLRA Field Rep for Central NJ
First-off I want to say I'm sorry to hear of the rudeness at the shotgun range. I've never been to Friendship, and I have NO intention of ever going, BUT I do support the NMLRA and I'm a newly appointed Field Rep for Central NJ. Folks that gave your Boy a hard time should be ashamed of themselves, and KARMA will eventually bite them in the ass! Glad to hear your son stuck with it and you had some wonderful father & son experiences none the less! My fondest memories of my (now 24 year old) son are at the BP clubs we shot at together. I introduced him to his .22 at age 4, made him a Life Member of the NRA by age 5 and he has a life-long hobby and several guns to his credit. And he LOVES shooting black powder (as long as I do most of the clean-up, lol)!
I too came into firearms via the .22 LR route, bought a bunch of centerfire stuff (pistols, rifles, shotguns), then re-discovered my deceased Dad's Cap & Ball. Took it to a BP league match and was LOANED a rifle & everything to make it work. In less than a 20-shot match I was HOOKED, and the rest, as they say, is history!
One of the clubs I belong to does all sorts of league discipline shoots from USPSA runnin' & gunnin' to Black Powder, with up to three matches running simultaneously at the same range complex. So we always draw some interest from passers-by and try to put a rifle in their hands. We make lots of folks smile and some come back with their own equipment. As the club grows, so does the BP league. We usually have to hold multiple relays to get everyone a chance to shoot, since we can only accommodate 10 shooters on the firing line per relay.
We have kids, women, average Joe's and some old-timers, so it's quite a mix, and we all learn from each other. One of our women is going for NRA Distinguished Expert in ML Rifle, and she will be the first female in the Country to hold that title!
Although we allow both cartridge BP firearms (most use caplocks) and inlines, hardly any inlines show-up since most models require cleaning after 4 ignitions, and our COF is a 20 shot aggregate. Between the amount of shooting and the expense$$$ of supplies (pellets, and the projectiles they fire), some of the folks who come out with their inlines have switched-over to PRB, and even more have bought a used Hawken-style gun. So from personal eye-witness experience I can tell you all that muzzleloading in NJ is GROWING!!
The "trick" to growing the league is to have friendly & knowledgeable folks RUNNIN' IT, and WE DO! We share supplies, hold social events like this Saturday's Christmas Party, bring charcoal grills to some of the warm weather matches, help repair guns, demonstrate effective cleaning techniques, and we also have a little fun bustin' balls too, so it all contributes to effective team-building. One of the major factors in growing our league was the adoption of the Winchester NRA Qualification Program for Muzzleloading, administered locally by our league chairman. Earning yer "stripes" and advancing through the various levels of marksmanship towards Distinguished Expert teaches each shooter how to "listen" to their rifle or pistol and the scores go up exponentially not only at the Qualifiers but also our regular league matches. Seeing constant improvement in one's scores keeps the interest level at its' peak, and "infects" new league members with the "bug" that is muzzleloading.
What I've just typed is but some of what ONE of the TWO clubs (that I shoot BP at) does to find & keep members. I'll report later on the club #2, so this post isn't a new version of War & Peace, lol! But for now, muzzleloading is EXPLODING in NJ!
Dave
NRA Distinguished Expert in ML Rifle & Pistol
NRA Life Member
NMLRA Field Rep for Central NJ
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