traditionalist - Are we Loosing the Battle

[Carbon 6]

Small game hunting, that's where the real fun is.
I ain't waiting for no stinking tag. I want to hunt when I want to hunt.
Small game gives me lots of options.

 

[GANGGREEN]

It does seem like there's been an increase in interest in traditional muzzleloaders lately. I don't know if it may be related to Covid-19 and people being at home or having more time on their hands or not. The traditional pages on Facebook (which is the devil) are really, really active right now, for what it's worth.

I see with my children's generation that they simply aren't as inclined to do out of doors, sporting things like they used to and I don't know what the answer to that is. While an unrelated topic, my wife and I tried to buy a snow suit or snow bibs for our 18 month old granddaughter yesterday and you'd swear that children simply don't play outside anymore, because we were unable to do it (ended up ordering online).

 

[Carbon 6]

NMLRA membership:

1970 11,000
1985 27,000
2010 17,000
2016 13,000
2018 16,000
2020 15,000

With the dwindling number of shooters, the NMLRA Western National shoot was canceled.

The number of Territorials continues to be less each year.

Unfortunately, the numbers do not lie.

The NML- who ?

Those numbers are interesting, but don't tell the whole story and say little about muzzleloading as a whole.
When I think Muzzleloading, the NMLRA is the last thing to enter my mind. No that's not a "dig" just the plain truth.

I would like to see the membership numbers for this forum for the last 10 years or so. Heck just the last 4 will blow your mind I'll bet.

 

[Carbon 6]

The traditional pages on Facebook (which is the devil) are really, really active right now, for what it's worth.

The algorithms are designed to optimize user engagement. In other words, they are addictive.

 

[Billy Boy]

I started making a new muzzleloader and have found making these last guns the the quality castings and quality wood are harder to find. When talking to suppliers they said they have to compete with the Orientals for the wood and the old quality parts were cast by by people now in their 80's now and very few have taken up the craft.

Then when I hit the hills to hunt, I find that most of them are shooting 500 yard plus guns that load from the muzzle and that is about all you can say about them. In our state the archers get what they want and the traditionalist get the "shaft". I have tried persuade the Big Game Board to change the hunts around to have the old time muzzleloader hunt available again, but have received deaf ears. The traditionists in our state are so fragmented and agree on nothing so we get nothing.

How do you see it?

Iv’e seen many 500 yd. rifles, made some unmentionables that could do that. Only met a two 500 yd. field (not bench) shooters in my entire life. The folks that carry them have every right to their fantasy life.

 

[Critter Getter]

Here in Iowa deer hunting with a gun for the most part meant shotguns shooting slugs. Now we have a variety of centerfire cartridges that are legal and most Muzzleloaders are the new style........we are definitely headed the wrong direction here. Greg

 

[FishDFly]

The NML- who ?

Those numbers are interesting, but don't tell the whole story and say little about muzzleloading as a whole.
When I think Muzzleloading, the NMLRA is the last thing to enter my mind. No that's not a "dig" just the plain truth.

I would like to see the membership numbers for this forum for the last 10 years or so. Heck just the last 4 will blow your mind I'll bet.

The NMLRA numbers are the only thing I know to track the interest in Traditional ML.

Numbers here would have little meaning. The numbers here to have a meaning would be long term retention of folks.

 

[CoHiCntry]

Colorado is close...(I left a few off as it had to do with bullet weights and not a part of this thread)
3. MUZZLELOADING RIFLES & SMOOTHBORE MUSKETS a. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading seasons.
b. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
c. Must be a single barrel that fires a single round ball or conical projectile.
h. Shotshell primers and B.O.R. Lock MZ System bullets are legal.
i. Pelletized powder systems are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.
j. Cannot be loaded from the breech during muzzleloading seasons.
k. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal. Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.
l. Sabots are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons. Cloth patches are not sabots. m. Smokeless powder is prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black powder and black-powder substitutes are legal.
n. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to muzzleloader during muzzleloading seasons.


oh and crossbows can only be used in rifle season unless you have a handicap permit

The original statement was... Some game dept. have recognized the "traditional" way and have outlawed the modern ML stuff. That is not what Colorado has done. They, like most other states have slowly, over the years let more and more technology into the muzzleloading season. About the only thing you can't do in Colorado is use a scope and a sabot. Everything else goes. There latest move to outlaw .50 caliber round balls for elk further digs at using a traditional gun. Anyone who used a .50 RB in the past now had to step up to a .54. I would expect the trend to continue instead of digressing.

 

[Carbon 6]

The NMLRA numbers are the only thing I know to track the interest in Traditional ML.

Numbers here would have little meaning. The numbers here to have a meaning would be long term retention of folks.

I think you need to scrutinize that a little more.

 

[smo]

I just hunt with my flintlock during all seasons when legal to use a firearm.

 

[CoHiCntry]

General question to all...why does it matter what others hunt with? Cant one be happy hunting with their own method?

I'll take a stab at this, although it's only from my perspective and from the state I live in. At face value, it seems logical, why would anyone care what others are hunting with as long as you can use you're weapon of choice. in this case a traditional muzzleloader?

In Colorado, where I live we don't get several deer tags every year like a lot of guy's back east. We have a draw system for all big game. As more and more technology makes it easier for guy's to pick up a muzzleloader there is more and more competition to draw tags. So now, a guy who used to hunt the rifle only season see's how easy it is to pick up an inline with all it's technology and shoot out to 200 yards even with open sites and starts muzzleloader hunting making it even harder to draw a tag for the muzzleloader season. A season that was established a long time ago by guy's shooting traditional guns, with a traditional season/ hunt in mind.

So although I don't really care what others hunt with. it is frustrating to not be able to draw tags some years due to the Colorado parks and wildlife decision to allow so much technology into the muzzleloader season making it really hard to draw tags due to the competition for these tags. Basically taking away a primitive season, turning it into a "rifle light" season.

 

[tenngun]

It's a matter of numbers.
Traditional numbers are dwindling. The influence we muster dwindles with us.
Call it progress, or maybe just progression, it's going to happen, like it or not.

We have always been nerds on the edge.
And it’s not just us. People want to find an easier or better way of doing things.
Have you ever sailed a wood boat with a mast stepped on and a luger sail? It’s slow and lubberly on turns compared to modern sail boats of the same size... but what fun
There are boys that restore classic cars to mint condition, or get old jolopies running saving all the patina. But the car magizines and shows are full of the latest computer chip on wheels.
Back packing is all about ounces and micro fibers today. Yes there are bushcrafters but folks would rather pay for the des/arit 3000 world class back pack with built in solar charger and waste vaporizer at 1.72 kilos.
We’re a nerd class. I’m ok with that.

 

[longcruise]

Idaho, Oregon, Colorado to one degree or another. Idaho is pretty much "traditional" and nothing else. No inlines, no sabots, no enclosed ignition, no 209 primers, lead projectiles only, no scopes, etc. Colorado is kinda "in between". Not familiar with "every" state, but there may be others. I think Pennsylvania has a "primitive" weapons only season, as well. Louisiana has a primitive weapons season, but it is a joke as it allows break open single shot centerfire cartridge rifles to be used. I guess in Louisiana a single shot centerfire is considered "primitive". Go figure!

Colorado has not changed regs very much since the mid '90's.

Back then the Colorado State Muzzle Loaders Association (CSMLA) lobbied for the exclusion of inline rifles during ML season. That lasted one season before inline manufacturers forced a reversal by threatening law suits. The recent changes in projectile requirements for elk and moose are one of the few major changes since then.

The projectile change may tend to favor inlines, but in fact, the inline 50 cal shooters are already shooting bullets. The change was actually petitioned for by the wildlife dept because the actual statute has stated minimum projectile SIZE for ages. That meant that a 490 or 495 ball did not comply with the law. Note there is a difference between the law and regulations. Regulations must comply with the law.

Those who lobby incessantly for more liberal ml laws (manufacturers and their shills) rate Colorado as the 7th most restrictive of modern ml equipment among the 50 states.

 

[Carbon 6]

NMLRA membership:

1970 11,000
1985 27,000
2010 17,000
2016 13,000
2018 16,000
2020 15,000

With the dwindling number of shooters, the NMLRA Western National shoot was canceled.

The number of Territorials continues to be less each year.

Unfortunately, the numbers do not lie.

You currently have more members than you did in both 1970 and 2016
You also lost 1000 members from 2018-2020. Why ?

The numbers do not lie, (people do) you do have to listen for what the numbers really say.

Numbers are also fun to play with.



NMLRA membership:
(using rounded numbers)
1970 11,000
15 years 145% increase Per year/ 9.6% increase
1985 27,000
25 years 37% decrease Per year/ 1.48% decrease
2010 17,000
6 years 23% decrease per year/ 3.8% decrease
2016 13,000
2 years 23% decrease Per year/ 11.5% decrease
2018 16,000
2 years 6 % decrease Per year/ 3% decrease.
2020 15,000

The years between 2016 and 2018 really stand out to me. What happened in those years ?
If we throw out the anomaly it looks like this.

2016 13000
4 years 15% increase Per year/ 3.75% increase.
2020 15000

This shows NMLRA growth over the last 4 years.

Now let's extrapolate this even further backwards to 2010.

2010 17000
10 years 12% decrease per year/ 1.2% decrease
2020 15000
Wow, that's pretty close to the 25 year decrease between 1985 and 2010

Now let's go all the way back to 1970.

1970 11000
50 years 36 % increase per year/ 0.72% increase.
2020 15000

So, in the last 50 years the NMLRA has managed a growth rate of 0.72%

Now what do the numbers tell you ?

 

[FishDFly]

"Now what do the numbers tell you ?"

That I hate statistics.

"Numbers are also fun to play with".

No, rocks are more fun, at least you can throw them.

Was merely reporting the numbers which show a decrease.

You are a math teacher which shoots BP!!

 

[Carbon 6]

Was merely reporting the numbers which show a decrease.

Precisely, and they were deliberately arranged to show a decrease. The dead giveaway (Red Flag) was the inconsistent reporting intervals.
Go back and get yearly numbers. Then we can digest them even better.

I hope this has opened your eyes some

 

[cannonball1]

General question to all...why does it matter what others hunt with? Cant one be happy hunting with their own method?

I might miss my guess, but I'll bet you're a whitetail hunter and not a open country hunter, hunting a depleted mule deer population from overhunting. You probably have access to private ground, and are not in a state where 70% of the state is public lands overrun by hunters. In Northern Utah hunting success for deer is around 16% with most of those being spikes.

 

[Carbon 6]

I long for the old days, when hunting wasn't so commercialized or politicized.

 

[FishDFly]

Precisely, and they were deliberately arranged to show a decrease. The dead giveaway (Red Flag) was the inconsistent reporting intervals.
Go back and get yearly numbers. Then we can digest them even better.

I hope this has opened your eyes some

I took the numbers from " The History of the NMLRA".

MB use to publish monthly, the total number of members and number of members by state. They stopped that some years back.

I have asked numerous times to have this re-instated but, they will not do so. Requests have been made personally to BOD members and Field Reps.

Don't want this to start a bashing, my point was the diminishing number of traditional shooters and their numbers lead some credence to it..

I do feel the days of the NMLRA are numbered.

I have been to 2 SASS shoots just to see what they are, they are not for me. I was amazed at the age of the shooters, same age group as BP shooters.

Tennis and golf were dying until 2 folks came along and
re-vitalized them. That is the only thing that will save BP shooting.

 

[FishDFly]

I long for the old days, when hunting wasn't so commercialized or politicized.

Amen, the fat lady has sung.