Traditions - Not Happy

[tg]

"It's a beautifully balanced rifle put together with superb craftsmanship and has a perfectly tuned lock and trigger"

Glad the rifle has worked well for you, I did have help with it from a master gunbuilder, I consider myself a novice gunstocker.

 

[tr07416]

Thanks to everyone for your interest in my problem and especially your encouragement to stick with it and hang in there. Since my original posting the following things have transpired:

1) I took notes on everyones suggestions
and tried to digest them to the best
of my newbie ability.

2) I took a trip to Dixon's gun shop
in PA.

3) I visited a friend of a friend with
flinter experience.

4) I spent yesterday afternoon at the
range experimenting.

Dixon's is a real candy shop for the traditional BP shooter. I leaned a lot just walking around. The best part was having the chance to shoulder a variety of custom made guns and have the various characteristics explained. The owners were great and very patient. I walked away with the impression from them that "yeah, those guns can have those types of problems" and without really saying it, that it wouldn't be worth investing in the necessary fixes to make a production gun into (I don't want to get into that discussion with a ten foot pole) "something else". He did say that
some guys that hunt drill the vent hole. I didn't get the impression that he thought Swiss powder would make much of a difference, but I bought it anyway.

The first thing that my buddy's friend did was show me that, what I thought was a clean barrel, really wasn't very clean at all. Implying that
may be part of my problem. He used a much more aggressive technique. Just water, a brush, and lots of patches, but I was surprised to see how much more black yuck was still in there. He reinforced many of the same things that you guys have said here.

OK, I put this all together and went to the range with high hopes, new Tom Fuller English flints, and my Swiss powder. The first thing I did was shoot off a couple of pans of powder and then a main charge with just powder and a patch. Swabbed that out with a wet patch and a dry one and picked the vent. Loaded up the main powder charge and tapped the butt, loaded the patch and ball, picked the vent and only filled the pan about half full, closed the frizzen, and rapped it a couple of times on the hammer side of the lock with my hand. Pulled up, aimed, squeezed the trigger and poof, a flash in the pan!! So I patiently reloaded the pan, this time only about one third full, and the second time she went off. Yes!! I tried swabbing a wet patch and a dry one after every shot and after every few shots. After every shot seemed to work best, it certainly made loading easier. Picking the vent after every shot defiantly worked better, as did rapping the lock compared to banking the powder away from the vent. Less powder in the pan, worked better than more. I replaced the flint once to see if that made any difference.

After coming up with a procedure that seemed to work best, I did a test run of a dozen shots. Out of the twelve, four misfired. (Only the pan flashed) That was a little disappointing from the way you guys talk, but over all it was better than I was getting before when it seemed like, on the average, every other shot was misfiring. I had no idea that I would be doing as much cleaning and picking. Any thoughts?

As much as I would like to get this rifle working like a champ, it seems like a better idea is to keep trying to refine my technique, and eventually put the money into a better gun. I would like to put one together myself with quality parts, but thats down the road aways. Thanks again for your interest and consideration.

 

[tg]

I don't recall if anyone mentioned it but I have found it best to use a loose enough cleaning patch that it cleans on the up stroke by bunching up and tightening in the bore, less chance of pushing crud down into that chamber.A pipe cleaner threu the outside of the vent may also help.

 

[squirejohn]

If you're getting flashes in the pan but no ignition drilling out the vent may help. (DH recommended drilling out to 1/8 or 3/16" but this is much too big.) If the current diameter is 1/16 (.0625") I'd start with a numbered drill such as #50 (.0700). A 5/64 (.0781) may also work but may be a bit large resulting in some loss of 3F powder through the vent at loading.

 

[FPDoc]

I agree with open the vent liner a little bit (in small steps up to max 5/64, testing after each opening..(I just used a #2 lathe centerdrill that coned the outside and opened the vent to 5/64) and cone the inside/outside of the liner. That can make a tremendous difference and a liner is only a couple of bucks..ie a reversible change..if you don't like the results. If you're getting the pan to flash every time..great!! Your lock is working and we know where the problem is. It's easier to fix a vent than rebuild a lock! Try not seating the ball harder than necessary and pick the vent after loading.

P.S. Try not to get too frustrated and remember to enjoy the tinkering cause it seems to be "part and parcel" of the experience and pride in being able to get a flintlock to "function with flawless perfection". :grin:

 

[HuntAway]

I replaced the vent liner with one of these from RMC. It has saved me a lot of frustration.
[url] http://rmcsports.com/catalog.htm[/url]

 

[tr07416]

Can you replace the vent liner without taking the lock apart and is the hole in the replacement vent larger than the Traditions original one?
Thanks for the info.

 

[Rebel]

You don't need to take the lock apart, only remove it from the stock. Then screw the old liner out and screw the new one in, simple as that. Replace the lock and you are good to go. As for the hole, it is a very simple thing to fix. All you need is a drill and 1/16" drill bit.

 

[squirejohn]

Some vent liners are not that easy to remove. I twisted two Easy-Outs trying to remove a liner, and finally had to drill it out. Also liners come in different sizes,threads, shoulder configuration etc. You'll probably need to shorten it and may wind up drilling it out to a larger diameter anyway.

 

[roundball]

"...I had no idea that I would be doing as much cleaning and picking. Any thoughts?..."

Well, I assume you aren’t satisfied with 4 pan flashes out of 12 of course so there’s still some work to do...and while not taking anything away from custom guns, laying out more money for one would would not be a high priority choice for me in an effort to fix a few misfires, as mass produced MLs can work just perfectly.

By contrast, I use mass produced TC Hawkens, shoot 50 shot range sessions and never wipe between shots, I don't waste time picking a vent, and I don't get misfires. I use Goex 3F in my Flintlocks, Tom Fuller BEFs, leather flint wraps like the settlers did, Natural Lube 1000 or Hoppes No9 PLUS for patch lube, and the vents are heavily coned inside and out with a large hole just an eyelash under 5/64"...photo shows the large coned vent...that combination goes off every time and ignition seems virutally instantaneous, so your's should be able to be made to fire 100% reliably as well.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hi SquirrelTail,

Absolutely, to each his own and I'm glad you like what you have. I liked mine fine until I got something better.

I'm going to guess that you've never shot a longrifle with a swamped barrel. A rifle with a long barrel (mine is 44" long) that is swamped balances and handles night and day better than a straight barrel. I have a traditions longrifle with a 40¾' barrel and it is extremely muzzle heavy by comparison. That's probably not important on a shorter Hawken's type barrel, but it makes a huge difference with a longrifle.

I had not thought much about swamped barrels until I shot a rifle that a friend made that had a swamped barrel. I was amazed at the difference. The swamped barrel is much easier to hold on target and is all around much more enjoyable to use. Another thing that I really like is that the rifle has a touch of cast off in the stock which allows my eye to automatically line up with the sights when I mount it. You can't get that with a straight stock.

I think you bring up a good point in your post. You buy and use the things that you like to use. At this point I'd suggest you don't ever use a rifle with a swamped barrel because you may like it...a lot.

Twisted1in66 :hatsoff:

 

[Rick Davis]

The first thing I did was shoot off a couple of pans of powder and then a main charge with just powder and a patch. Swabbed that out with a wet patch and a dry one and picked the vent. Loaded up the main powder charge and tapped the butt, loaded the patch and ball, picked the vent and only filled the pan about half full, closed the frizzen, and rapped it a couple of times on the hammer side of the lock with my hand. Pulled up, aimed, squeezed the trigger and poof, a flash in the pan!! So I patiently reloaded the pan, this time only about one third full, and the second time she went off. ...

Is this your first flintlock?

I have this same rifle. I had no idea how much 4F to use in the pan, as all my prior experience was with muskets. Here's what I did: I loaded a light blank round, and sprinkled a -small- amount of 4F in the pan. I mean, like a dusting. It lights he 4F prime every time without fail, but didn't light off the main charge. I slowly increased the 4F prime until I got 100% main charge ignition. From there I adjusted the main charge for optimum accuracy. Adding more priming powder beyond this caused hang fires and delayed discharge. Also, keeping a small gap between the priming powder and the vent hole really reduced ignition time.

Since then I bought a priming horn, and the Traditions PA rifle hasn't misfired once. I use only Goex powder and Hoppes Nine plus to clean. I also clean after 2-3 shots.

I can't say for certain what's causing your misfires, but it sounds like it's in the general vicinity of the vent hole.

I don't suspect you bought the wrong gun, as my PA rifle is a real solid performer. It might be something simple like a light load, and the patch/wadding partially covering the vent hole, or a shallow chamfer on the vent hole. Long & deep vent holes can be problematic as the flash has a longer path to traverse. The 18th C. fix was countersinking the hole from inside the chamber before they installed the breech plug. The tool they used was a small hand-held right angle drill with a set of small gears so it would fit inside the barrel. It resembled a miniature egg beater. I have a photo of one in use in Colonial Williamsburg somewhere. Today this is simplified with the replaceable touch hole liner.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

. . .
My question is: Is there anything I can still do to get my gun to shoot consistantly and if so would it be cost effective? Someone suggested a "White Lighting" vent liner may help? I really don't have the cash to invest in a quality firearm right now and I really have enjoyed shooting (when it goes off). Any thoughts?

I got in on this late and went back to your original question so I wouldnt's waste your time. Since your lock flashes and your barrel doesn't ignite, the vent hole is the likely problem. I don't think anyone asked where it is located. Conventional wisdon says it should not be too low. Most folks like them level with the pan top. If your vent is lower than that, you need to be certain that you don't cover it when adding priming powder.

Traditions did not use a liner so you have a straight cylinder hole unless a previous owner played with this. That means a fairly long vent hole. Since you are looking for a fix that isn't expensive, here are a few things to try.

1. vent diameter -- take a 1/16" and try it in the hole. You may need to remove the lock to do this especially if the hole is low. If a 1/16 bit is tight or won't fit, you have found a good bit of the problem. A 5/64" bit is an easy size to get, is probably as large as I'd try; in fact there are numbered bits available inbetween 1/16 and 5/64. A trip to the local hardware can get you a couple. I'd enlarge the hole gradually and fire the rifle between each try. My experience is that around .070" (no. 50 bit) you will find good ignition. Go to 5/64 if it is necessary, but work up to it. The vertical location of the vent may make the 5/64 unnecessary.

2. long vent -- The larger hole will help; maybe that's all you need. However, an exterior cone will shorten the vent without any expensive modification. A plain counter sink will work. Take a little at a time.

3. Keeping the vent clean -- there are many answers here. Some shooters use a vent pick; I like using a pipe cleaner before reloading. My reason for this goes back to an experience I had when timing vent holes for MuzzleBlasts in 2000. I had a cleanout screw in my test barrel directly opposite the vent. Between sessions I was cleaning the barrel, when I looked through the cleanout and saw a huge piece of crud lodged in the vent. I went after it with a vent pick while looking through the cleanout. The pick pushed the crud out of the vent and into the barrel. But---when the pick was withdrwan, the crud was redeposited back in the vent. I went to a pipe cleaner since then.

Suggestions about using a pick after loading have been offered. I've gone both ways on this. I'd suggest finding what your gun likes. I don't want to give an opinion picks because I can't back it with numbers.

These mods should make a big difference in igniting the barrel. You didn't mention having trouble with the lock, so I will only say that paying attention to the little things will pay off as you learn the gun. Each is different and you will learn what your gun likes. Shooting a flint gun well is a continous learning experience.

The above is offered, looking toward an inexpensive solution. Installing a vent liner casts a little more but could be less frustrating.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[bart_anastasi]

It seems to me that you are doing more cleaning than shooting.

If you must put liquid in the gun you should remember to not clean all the way down to the bottom of the barrel.

You should leave the bottom inch or so of the barrel uncleaned since you are just putting powder down there not a bullet.

IF you clean the gun remember to lay the gun lock side up on the shooting bench. When I do do this like in seasioning a barrel for the first time I put a rest under the gun butt to raise the barrel end to keep any liquid from flowing to the back of the chamber.

You should be cleaning the barrel not the chamber.

I do not know what you are prime with but since you are getting a flash every time that should not be a problem.

If the gun goes off good most of the time you should expect it t o go off every time something is not right with the vent or it is dirty and needs to be picked or something.

We have a Pa rifle here in the Dicks store I work at in the Lodge and the one thing I do not like about it is the shape of the touch hole insert that comes with it. Either drill it out a bit or get a better.

As for Dixons those people are in the business of selling guns.

There is nothing wrong with this but it is sort of like going to a Mercedes dealership and asking about how a Honda or Ford is really just as good.

 

[Runner]

Most Traditions flinters use a stainless steel screw driver slot liner.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

I was looking at my traditons kentucky flinter and the pan sits level with the vent hole. I would remove the lock and frizzen, use a dremmel and deepen the pan. Doesnt take but a few minutes worth of work. I did this on a cva i had and it worked perfectly.
My pan also likes slightly less than half a pan of 4f. it fires fast too.

 

[tr07416]

Yes, this is my first flinter and first BP gun.
I removed the vent and drilled it out using a 1/16 bit. When I tried it out there really wasn't much of an improvement, its still flashing in the pan a little less than half the time. My next move is to drill it out again, this time with a 1/8 bit. The vent location seems to be ok, its in the middle of the pan and not below it. It may be stainless and is sloted. I am continuing to experiment with primer amounts and location, trying to find what works best.

Thanks a million for all the comments and suggestions. With your encouragement I'm less frustrated and more up to the challange of figuring out what makes this
particular rifle tick. Enough of you that have the same gun seem to have good ignition, so I should be able to get mine to fire consistantly too if I keep tinkering.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

i'd deepen the pan. The pan on my GPR is a lot higher than my traditions.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

. . . My next move is to drill it out again, this time with a 1/8 bit. . . . .

I'd strongly encourage you to try a bit smaller than 1/8". 1/8" is HUGE when use as a vent diameter. There are many sizes of bits between 1/16 and 1/8 at the hardware. I think 5/64" would help you a lot and those are found in almost any set of bits. I can't think of anyone who would recommend a vent larger than .100" and 1/8" is .125". If you try a size between 1/16 and 1/8 and it still won't work to your satisfaction, you can always try 1/8. I doubt if you will need it.

If you find that you need 1/8" vent to make this gun work, there is a bigger problem yet to be found.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[tr07416]

Wow! Thanks Pletch. I'm really showing my lack of understanding here! I was figuring 2/16 = 1/8 and that would be the next largest size bit. You saved me on that one. As you can tell, not much experience in the machining dept. You folks have been talking about #2 and #5 bits, but I didn't get it. They must be sizes in between the standard sizes. Should I mess with them or go right to a 5/64?
Thank again,
TR