The patented breech is giving me a lot of trouble: shooting 2F, I pretty much have to trickle-in pan powder thru the vent hole to avoid miss/hang fire. The 2f charge is just not going down to the chute after couple shoots. One option is to switch to 3f. If that doesn't work, I might have to open up the chute. My question for you gents: how is the barrel usually fixed to the stock in this type of rifle, and how do I remove it. Thanks.
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Traditions Pennsylvania rifle breech problem
- Thread starter tteng
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rafterob
62 Cal.
I will assume that is a .50 cal. since that is all Traditions is importing nowadays. fffg would work well in that. Your other option would be to use a duplex load. Dump a few grains of 4f down the barrel and shake into the chamber before adding your main charge. 4f is not for a main charge load so I would monitor the amount you used closely.
The barrel is probably pinned to the stock and the nose cap may be screwed to the barrel. Look for small brass or steel pins on the stock under the line of the barel. They can be punched out with a finishing nail or you can buy pin punches.
The barrel is probably pinned to the stock and the nose cap may be screwed to the barrel. Look for small brass or steel pins on the stock under the line of the barel. They can be punched out with a finishing nail or you can buy pin punches.
paulvallandigham
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If the stock is pinned, use pin punches to remove the pins. That will get the barrel out of the stock. Expect that breechplug to have a smaller powder chamber in it- possibly as small as .25-.33" Try using a .22 caliber bore brush, or a .30 caliber bore brush to see which size fits that chamber. You can wrap a cleaning patch over the bore brush to clean the powder chamber.
Remove the nipple, and use a pipe cleaner, or at least a bent paper clip to scrap the crud out of the flash channel, that runs from the nipple to the middle of the back of the barrel, and that powder chamber. If you can find a gunsmith to take that breechplug off, you can have him use an end mill or drill bit to open up that powder chamber to a larger size- possibly as large as the bore diameter. That will allow you to clean the chamber area with the same jag and patches you use to clean the rifled portion of the barrel.
The Flash channel may also be way too small. That can be usually drilled open a bit, without harming the integrity of the design. If you don't open it up to a larger size, at least get in there with emery cloth and polish the heck out of that channel. A hand drill, a thin dowel, with a slit cut in one end to hold a strip of emery cloth will let you polish the channel at high speed, and get it done quickly. The smoother it is, the less likely crud will form and stay there.
Oh, if you are using any kind of petroleum based oils, or lubes, STOP. The gum up the works. Use only vegetable based oils and lubes in MLers. Its one of the " Great Secrets". Much of the crud problems people have with MLers, using both Black Powder, and the Synthetics, is the fact that oil and these powders produce some serious gunk that glues its self in the barrel. Soap and Water will dissolve most of it, and alchol will dissolve the rest. But, that is not much peace of mind when you are hunting. :hmm: :hatsoff:
Remove the nipple, and use a pipe cleaner, or at least a bent paper clip to scrap the crud out of the flash channel, that runs from the nipple to the middle of the back of the barrel, and that powder chamber. If you can find a gunsmith to take that breechplug off, you can have him use an end mill or drill bit to open up that powder chamber to a larger size- possibly as large as the bore diameter. That will allow you to clean the chamber area with the same jag and patches you use to clean the rifled portion of the barrel.
The Flash channel may also be way too small. That can be usually drilled open a bit, without harming the integrity of the design. If you don't open it up to a larger size, at least get in there with emery cloth and polish the heck out of that channel. A hand drill, a thin dowel, with a slit cut in one end to hold a strip of emery cloth will let you polish the channel at high speed, and get it done quickly. The smoother it is, the less likely crud will form and stay there.
Oh, if you are using any kind of petroleum based oils, or lubes, STOP. The gum up the works. Use only vegetable based oils and lubes in MLers. Its one of the " Great Secrets". Much of the crud problems people have with MLers, using both Black Powder, and the Synthetics, is the fact that oil and these powders produce some serious gunk that glues its self in the barrel. Soap and Water will dissolve most of it, and alchol will dissolve the rest. But, that is not much peace of mind when you are hunting. :hmm: :hatsoff:
Kentuckywindage
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replace the vent liner with the RMC liner. it uses an Allen head wrench i believe its call, and the hole is bigger than the traditions.
2f works great in my rifle. I used a dremmel tool and took out some metal in the pan so the powder sits below the vent hole VS sitting even with it.
2f works great in my rifle. I used a dremmel tool and took out some metal in the pan so the powder sits below the vent hole VS sitting even with it.
Also be aware that the side lock screw may pass through a hole in an extension of the barrel tang and will also have to be removed before the barrel will come out of the stock.
You will have to remove the vent liner before attempting to remove the breechplug and some heat may help with pulling the actual plug. Once you have it out you will see that it is a very long and small diameter hole which can easily be re-drilled to 3/8". I'd not recommend going much larger than 3/8 as that may leave the threaded side walls too thin. While you have the plug out check to see how much powder it takes to fill your "new" patent breech, that will be your minimum charge.
You will have to remove the vent liner before attempting to remove the breechplug and some heat may help with pulling the actual plug. Once you have it out you will see that it is a very long and small diameter hole which can easily be re-drilled to 3/8". I'd not recommend going much larger than 3/8 as that may leave the threaded side walls too thin. While you have the plug out check to see how much powder it takes to fill your "new" patent breech, that will be your minimum charge.
Kentuckywindage
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i sure in heck wouldnt attempt to pull the breech plug, the rifle has a warranty, you remove the plug and mess something up, good luck trying to get it fixed with the warranty!
If you think theres something wrong with it, send it in to traditions for repair.
If you think theres something wrong with it, send it in to traditions for repair.
Kentuckywindage
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just tell them what you have and the problem you are having. i am sure they can help you out.
You may be pushing fouling into the mouth of the breech if you are swabbing the bore between shots.
IMHO, reduce the diameter of the jag about .020 by turning, filing, or grinding/sanding. The smaller dia of the jag will allow a cleaning patch to slide past the fouling, but will remove the fouling once the patch bunches up on the jag.
The result is a clear antechamber.
IMHO, reduce the diameter of the jag about .020 by turning, filing, or grinding/sanding. The smaller dia of the jag will allow a cleaning patch to slide past the fouling, but will remove the fouling once the patch bunches up on the jag.
The result is a clear antechamber.
Kentuckywindage said:
It was Traditions who built it that way in the first place. If you send it to them they will tell you there is nothing wrong with it. The maker is not going to correct a design defect, that requires "after market" modification.
Are you scrubbing out the chamber in the breech? I don't know what size it is, but usually a .22, .30 or .35 caliber brush will fit them. Try some brushes till you find one that will scrub it and make sure it's clean. The previous owner may have not known to scrub it and you might have a lot of fouling caked in there that is causing the problem.
If he's like me, he probably tried all that and STILL had problems. I have the same exact rifle, it worked fine the first 2 trips to the range, the third was a complete disaster. I drilled out my vent hole to be large enough to fit in a pipe cleaner and I am really considering removing the breech plug as well. Does anyone make a replacement breech plug that is not a patent breech, or is that even possible to put a new/different breech plug on it?
Based on personal experience and the experience of others, I suspect that these misfires are due, in a large part, on loading/swabbing procedures. Try reducing the diameter of your jag to PULL fouling out of the bore instead of PUSHING it down to clog the opening of the patent breech.
Try that first, then work on other solutions.
One of the things I keep harping about is the piss poor designs of production guns. And this issue is a perfect example. However, paying close attention to loading/swabbing procedures can overcome poor design, at least to some extent.
Replacing the breech plug with a typical "flint" style plug will require moving the barrel back in the stock, once the new breechplug is installed.
The tenons attached to the underside of the barrel pin will need to be reinlet and new pin holes drilled. The nose cap will likely need to be removed and reinlet farther back on the forearm to accommodate the shorter barrel. So, do ya wanna go to all that time and expense, or do ya' wanna pay closer attention to your loading/swabbing procedures?
Try that first, then work on other solutions.
One of the things I keep harping about is the piss poor designs of production guns. And this issue is a perfect example. However, paying close attention to loading/swabbing procedures can overcome poor design, at least to some extent.
Replacing the breech plug with a typical "flint" style plug will require moving the barrel back in the stock, once the new breechplug is installed.
The tenons attached to the underside of the barrel pin will need to be reinlet and new pin holes drilled. The nose cap will likely need to be removed and reinlet farther back on the forearm to accommodate the shorter barrel. So, do ya wanna go to all that time and expense, or do ya' wanna pay closer attention to your loading/swabbing procedures?
Well here is the problem. At top is a Traditions breechplug and nipple drum. Below is a Pedersoli breechplug which is even worse. You can't just shorten the plug because that would leave exposed barrel threads. The best you can do is to pull the drum and plug and drill the powder chamber larger, larger but not deeper. You then can cut off the end of the nipple drum so that it just meets the powder chamber without protruding into it. You may be able to also slightly enlarge the bore of the drum, slightly, don't get carried away and make the thread walls too thin. Those modifications are certain to improve ignition and make cleaning easier as well.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e245/coyotejoe/breechplugs.jpg
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Is there any reason you can't just drill out the powder chamber to a slightly larger diameter without pulling the plug?
I would use an extended length high speed bit to drill it out from the muzzle end. Use a probe to determine the present diameter and depth, then use a bit of slightly larger diameter (wouldn't take much) to drill it out to the same depth. Any machinist can use his lathe to weld a standard bit to a long 1/4" steel rod in perfect alignment, and it wouldn't cost you much. You could even slip a couple of rubber "O" rings along the length of the steel rod to help with alignment and protect the bore.
I would use an extended length high speed bit to drill it out from the muzzle end. Use a probe to determine the present diameter and depth, then use a bit of slightly larger diameter (wouldn't take much) to drill it out to the same depth. Any machinist can use his lathe to weld a standard bit to a long 1/4" steel rod in perfect alignment, and it wouldn't cost you much. You could even slip a couple of rubber "O" rings along the length of the steel rod to help with alignment and protect the bore.
Been there. Know how you feel.
It was my first BP gun and I was
ready to either wrap it around a
tree or bury it in the woods someplace
and never visit it again.
Made it a wall hanger instead.
IMHO that's all its good for.
To be fair, other guys here have
not had our problems with the same
rifle.
TR
It was my first BP gun and I was
ready to either wrap it around a
tree or bury it in the woods someplace
and never visit it again.
Made it a wall hanger instead.
IMHO that's all its good for.
To be fair, other guys here have
not had our problems with the same
rifle.
TR
Hi Tteng,
Sorry I haven't been by for a few days or I would have answered you earlier. I've had that gun for about 4 or 5 years and once you get it dialed in, it is a great shooter. Use 3f powder in that rifle and it will work a lot better and won't foul nearly as much as 2f does. Also, I wouldn't recommend removing the barrel unless you have a REALLY good reason. It is pinned in place with steel pins and you can bugger up the wood pretty easily if you're not real careful removing it and putting it back. It DOES NOT have a removable breech and you don't need to remove the barrel to clean it.
If you are going to remove the barrel, go get the appropriate sized punch to do so. Don't try to "make-do" with a nail, because it invariably slips and you can scratch or gouge the finish. Also, go get a wood putty stick in walnut so you can cover up the holes and hide the heads of the pins once you put it back in place. And No, the pins are not in or under the stars on the side of the forearm. They're in the wood of the forearm and they are covered over with wood putty, so you have to look closely to find them.
When you clean that rifle, remove the lock, being careful not to pull out the front screw any farther than you have to to get it to release the lock. The manual warns you to tape it in place and you better not forget to do that. You can remove that rear screw with no problem, but if you remove the front screw the little V-spring in the ramrod channel will fall into the channel and jam your ramrod. They use that screw to hold the spring in place in the ramrod channel. If the lock screw comes out, then will have to remove the barrel just to get that stupid spring out and get your ramrod free...ask me how I know!
That spring in the back of the ramrod channel is really a stupid design and the screw falls out easily enough that I finally drilled a small hole in front of the lock plate and pinned that stupid spring in place. Then I didn't have to worry about it falling down and jamming things up any more.
When you've pulled the lock out of the rifle, plug the flash hole with a round wooden toothpick and pour some water or your favorite cleaning solution into it. Set the rifle aside while you clean the lock. After the lock has been cleaned the fouling in the breech has had plenty of time to soak. Use a wet patch and start it in the barrel until you feel a little resistance, which is the air pressure in the barrel as you start to compress it. Now, very important...point the flash hole away from anything you don't want stained black, remove the toothpick and quickly push the ramrod the rest of the way down.
This really ugly black stuff will come flying out of the flash hole and will hit anything within about 10 or 15 feet of it. Good news is that this method pressure washes the patent breech and keeps it working well.
Another recommendation I'll make is to get one of those CO2 ball removers. Besides removing a dry ball or and unfired shot without the need to fire it, it also will blow all the manure out of the patent breech and clear it out if it gets clogged.
Also, if you put a fair amount of gun oil on the inside of the barrel after you've cleaned it, be sure to at least swab out the barrel with a dry patch and preferably with an alcohol patch so your black powder doesn't turn into an oil soaked gob of goo with the first load you put down it. That CO2 ball remover will save you if forget it. They're about $20 or so and worth so much more than that when you find you need one.
Hope this helps,
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Sorry I haven't been by for a few days or I would have answered you earlier. I've had that gun for about 4 or 5 years and once you get it dialed in, it is a great shooter. Use 3f powder in that rifle and it will work a lot better and won't foul nearly as much as 2f does. Also, I wouldn't recommend removing the barrel unless you have a REALLY good reason. It is pinned in place with steel pins and you can bugger up the wood pretty easily if you're not real careful removing it and putting it back. It DOES NOT have a removable breech and you don't need to remove the barrel to clean it.
If you are going to remove the barrel, go get the appropriate sized punch to do so. Don't try to "make-do" with a nail, because it invariably slips and you can scratch or gouge the finish. Also, go get a wood putty stick in walnut so you can cover up the holes and hide the heads of the pins once you put it back in place. And No, the pins are not in or under the stars on the side of the forearm. They're in the wood of the forearm and they are covered over with wood putty, so you have to look closely to find them.
When you clean that rifle, remove the lock, being careful not to pull out the front screw any farther than you have to to get it to release the lock. The manual warns you to tape it in place and you better not forget to do that. You can remove that rear screw with no problem, but if you remove the front screw the little V-spring in the ramrod channel will fall into the channel and jam your ramrod. They use that screw to hold the spring in place in the ramrod channel. If the lock screw comes out, then will have to remove the barrel just to get that stupid spring out and get your ramrod free...ask me how I know!
That spring in the back of the ramrod channel is really a stupid design and the screw falls out easily enough that I finally drilled a small hole in front of the lock plate and pinned that stupid spring in place. Then I didn't have to worry about it falling down and jamming things up any more.
When you've pulled the lock out of the rifle, plug the flash hole with a round wooden toothpick and pour some water or your favorite cleaning solution into it. Set the rifle aside while you clean the lock. After the lock has been cleaned the fouling in the breech has had plenty of time to soak. Use a wet patch and start it in the barrel until you feel a little resistance, which is the air pressure in the barrel as you start to compress it. Now, very important...point the flash hole away from anything you don't want stained black, remove the toothpick and quickly push the ramrod the rest of the way down.
This really ugly black stuff will come flying out of the flash hole and will hit anything within about 10 or 15 feet of it. Good news is that this method pressure washes the patent breech and keeps it working well.
Another recommendation I'll make is to get one of those CO2 ball removers. Besides removing a dry ball or and unfired shot without the need to fire it, it also will blow all the manure out of the patent breech and clear it out if it gets clogged.
Also, if you put a fair amount of gun oil on the inside of the barrel after you've cleaned it, be sure to at least swab out the barrel with a dry patch and preferably with an alcohol patch so your black powder doesn't turn into an oil soaked gob of goo with the first load you put down it. That CO2 ball remover will save you if forget it. They're about $20 or so and worth so much more than that when you find you need one.
Hope this helps,
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
I was just messin with my rifle...as I do a lot...cause I love it more than I love my own family members, but anyways, I took out my .22cal brush, which someone once suggested can get into the patent breech area...well it seems as if this powder chamber is smaller than .22 as I was pushing on the ramrod with some force I could feel it starting to squish into the powder chamber, but not even to the point of the vent hole as I could not see it or poke it with my pick. I tried it without a patch as well. I will try a .17cal brush I suppose, and report back
rusty spurr
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Is it a flintlock or percussion?
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