Troubleshooting a used Musket - Tightening it up!

[Aldarith]

That's a good idea. Be sure to strip the lock plate before you do and check each and every hole size at the hardware store and make sure to record the sizes on paper. That so you have something to refer back to later and so you don't forget. I do that and believe me it is too easy to forget, if you don't.
Gus

I will absolutely be doing this with my trusty notebook.
The catch here is that the face on the tumbler screws was ground off to make the lock fit inside the mortise (instead of fitting it properly) so I have to re-slot a couple screws before I can even get them turned. Luckily I have a dremel with a wheel.

 

[Artificer]

FlinterNick said:
consider redrilling and taping to a more generic option in metric.

Oh please do tell - this is a new process to me.

What Nick means is the diameters and thread sizes of the screws may be older styles/diameter sizes and thread sizes that are no longer commonly used and for which repro screws may not be available. We run into this a lot on original 18th and 19th century locks even when they are inch pattern screws and thread sizes. They often used thread sizes, especially, that are not common today.

However, my additional advice is DO NOT re-drill and re-tap the holes until AFTER you get accurate sizes for the holes in the lock plate and check to see what lock screws are available. The reason I say this is because it is a good possibility that lock screws may be available from locks you might not consider. For example, lock screws from one or more repro Italian Military Percussion locks may be just the ticket for you.

If you can get accurate hole sizes and thread sizes, we can check other such screws that may work without having to completely make screws for your lock.

If not, then re-drilling and re-tapping the holes for repro screws would be required.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

New problem: The cock has this awful cut metal washer behind it and I realize now that it doesn't really fit the tumbler all that well as I actually have to exert a little pressure on the tumbler and rotate it backwards to make it fit. It's still got pressure on it even when resting on the pan, so it seems to me this would be unnecessarily hard on the lock.

Should I consider a replacement?
If so, how do I measure the throw in order to judge a fit replacement?

The flintcock is a pedersoli replacement. Not for this lock.

you may want to consider getting a reconversion cock from Butche’s Antique Gun Parts. His third model flintcock will fit most trade gun locks, of course you’ll need to fit it to the tumbler, not hard to do, just very time consuming.

 

[Artificer]

Should it be necessary to get a replacement Cock/Hammer, you have to know the correct "throw" length and top jaw length.

Below is a link that shows how to do that under "Measuring Cocks and Top Jaws"

Flintcocks - Great Britain and Ireland Page 1 (blackleyandson.com)

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Should it be necessary to get a replacement Cock/Hammer, you have to know the correct "throw" length and top jaw length.

Below is a link that shows how to do that under "Measuring Cocks and Top Jaws"

Flintcocks - Great Britain and Ireland Page 1 (blackleyandson.com)

Gus

I’m guessing the pedersoli flintlock on there is suitable to throw a spark, the pedersoli flintcock is much closer to a third model, but it actually looks like a first model (56 era).

 

[Artificer]

Very glad you posted the following pic, because it is part of the problem you are having with the Cock going down too far.

It looks to me like someone filed the "stop" or shoulder too much on this cock. In this pic, the "stop" or shoulder is shown facing vertically and to the left of the large flat area surrounding the square hole for the tumbler.

This "stop" or shoulder is one of two things (on a lock with an interior Bridle) that keeps the Cock from traveling too far forward. (On a lock without an interior Bridle, it is the only thing that keeps the cock from traveling too far forward.)

It looks like someone filed it too much and as shown in this pic, too much to the left.

The way to check to see if the "stop" or this shoulder of the cock correctly fits the lock plate is to strip the interior lock parts off to where you just have the Tumbler and Cock on the lock plate. You want to look at it from the inside of the lock plate.

Slowly move the cock forward until the jaws stand off maybe 1/8" or more from hitting the pan. If that "stop" or shoulder doesn't hit the top of the lock plate to keep it from going further, it has been filed too much. You can measure the distance by laying the lock down with the cock facing downward. If it has been filed too much, one way to fix it is to weld metal onto the Cock and correctly file it so the stop/shoulder does stop the forward movement of the Cock.

HOWEVER, on a lock with an interior bridle like this, the OTHER thing that keeps the Cock from traveling too far forward is the tail of the Tumbler hitting the rear of the Bridle. IOW, both this and the stop/shoulder on the Cock keep it from going too far forward.

So, after you check to see how much metal has to be welded back onto the stop/shoulder of the cock, then put the Bridle back on and screw it down using only the left Bridle Screw. That way you can see whether the Bridle is stopping the forward movement of the Cock (or not) by the rear of the Tumbler hitting it.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I’m guessing the pedersoli flintlock on there is suitable to throw a spark,

It may well be and if so, then the cock seems like it still needs correcting for the stop or shoulder to keep it from going forward/down too far.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Folks, you will have to pardon me as I'm having a bit of a difficult time following everything Aldarith mentioned as problems in different posts.

What I propose is going over things one at a time and in an orderly manner so they can be checked and fixed (if necessary) and because of the way the parts must interact correctly.

So I suggest Aldarith begin by disassembling the lock parts and that includes filing or cutting the Bridle Screw Slots deeper so they can be removed, and checked for size, as well as so the Bridle can be removed to see if the stop/shoulder on the Cock is working correctly or not, as explained in my post a little further up the thread.

Aldarith, if you would be so kind, please post a pic when you have disassembled the interior parts to where only the Tumbler is on the inside of the lock and the Cock is on the outside. Put the cock about 1/8" back from hitting the pan and lay it Cock side down, so one is looking at the inside of the lock and so we can see what the stop/shoulder (of the cock) looks like in that position.

Gus

 

[Aldarith]

@Artificer, I will do that. Thank you for the suggestion.
I'll compile the noted issues below for ease of reading, most were mentioned in the first 4 posts or so with the exception of my realization about the cock.

The problems noted so far as follows:
1 Lock Bolt missing
Cock hitting pan
Cock shoulder not fitted correctly (noted by you)
No fitting work done to cock whatsoever
Frizzen screw stripped
Tumbler screw slots machined off
Sprue on sear (trigger can be pulled on half-cock as result)

 

[Artificer]

@Artificer, I will do that. Thank you for the suggestion.
I'll compile the noted issues below for ease of reading, most were mentioned in the first 4 posts or so with the exception of my realization about the cock.

The problems noted so far as follows:
1 Lock Bolt missing (Will the one you have properly screw into both Lock Bolt Holes?)
Cock hitting pan - Cock shoulder not fitted correctly (noted by you) (Both are part of the same problem)
No fitting work done to cock whatsoever (Is this because of the washer put between the lock plate and the cock or something else?)
Frizzen screw stripped
Tumbler screw slots machined off (Aren't these the Bridle and Sear Screws? Not trying to be a know it all, but if so, I suggest we use the proper terms so we both don't get confused. Grin)
Sprue on sear (trigger can be pulled on half-cock as result) (We need good pics of the front of the face of the Sear and the Side of the Face when we get to this point. Oh, we will also need good pics of the Half Cock and Full Cock Notches when there are no parts to hide them from view.)


I think we need to add:
Clear Tang Screw for Bridle and/or Sear Screw

Gus

 

[oldwood]

Very important................If the musket is not new , but new to you , (Had previous owner?) , the bore should be checked for loose and tight spots. Easily done with just a ramrod and a snugly fitting patch on the r/r tip. Gently hold the barrel in a vise , so when the snug patch is pushed and pulled in it , you can feel the progress of the r/r. You will know if there's a problem. Is it rust or a dent? Rust can be dealt with , but a dent might be another story. A loose spot should be investigated by a competent gunsmith. That could be a bulge , and dangerous. With a poorly constructed lock of the type you have , I would look into replacing it with a better one. No gun should be unsafe , due to lock problems. What is your or another's safety worth?

 

[oreclan]

What is your intentions for this trade musket? I have several that were converted back to flintlocks and I would not shoot them. Just like their historical significance.

 

[Bergmann]

Not even sure if the frizzen screw has the right threads. I suggest trying to run it into the interior side of the lock to see if it screws in properly. If not, then that is a bad replacement as well.

Do you have a set of digital Vernier Calipers that read to .001" increments?

Larry is correct the threads are probably metric. Do you know anyone locally who is a full time or part time machinist or perhaps an auto mechanic? Machinists can help you get the exact thread and size while a mechanic may be able to do it as well.

More later,
Gus

Have you contacted Dixie Gun Works? They have parts for original guns and may have the screw you are looking for - or one close enough for
Government work!

 

[gundoc2000]

New problem: The cock has this awful cut metal washer behind it and I realize now that it doesn't really fit the tumbler all that well as I actually have to exert a little pressure on the tumbler and rotate it backwards to make it fit. It's still got pressure on it even when resting on the pan, so it seems to me this would be unnecessarily hard on the lock.

Should I consider a replacement?
If so, how do I measure the throw in order to judge a fit replacement?

dixie gun works will sell you a replacement if you send them you're lock plate they can match a replacement probably cheaper than repairing this one

 

[2 shots]

looks like a pedersoli brown bess hammer.

 

[Aldarith]

The problems noted so far as follows:
1 Lock Bolt missing (Will the one you have properly screw into both Lock Bolt Holes?)
Cock hitting pan - Cock shoulder not fitted correctly (noted by you) (Both are part of the same problem)
No fitting work done to cock whatsoever (Is this because of the washer put between the lock plate and the cock or something else?)
Frizzen screw stripped
Tumbler screw slots machined off (Aren't these the Bridle and Sear Screws? Not trying to be a know it all, but if so, I suggest we use the proper terms so we both don't get confused. Grin)
Sprue on sear (trigger can be pulled on half-cock as result) (We need good pics of the front of the face of the Sear and the Side of the Face when we get to this point. Oh, we will also need good pics of the Half Cock and Full Cock Notches when there are no parts to hide them from view.)


I think we need to add:
Clear Tang Screw for Bridle and/or Sear Screw

Gus

The lockbolt does screw all the way in to the other hole, only does a 1/2 turn.

The cock is altogether too big and not secure on the pivot. The pivot is just slightly worn but the hole on this cock is also just a bit too big to be a good fit.

I am new so I was just going by a quick google search so I'll defer to your naming on which screws are which

I will re-slot the screws sometime this weekend and get this apart for us to see.

Have you contacted Dixie Gun Works? They have parts for original guns and may have the screw you are looking for - or one close enough for
Government work!

I haven't, should I?
I am in Canada so things might get expensive fast.

 

[Flinter 2]

You may have to resign yourself to the fact that it may be a favorite wall hanger.
Not intending to be insulting, but if you decide to adapt non original parts and make modifications to it to get it to function it will have lost it's antique status and just become an old gun with questionable provenance and a potential safety hazard.

 

[Artificer]

The lockbolt does screw all the way in to the other hole, only does a 1/2 turn.

If the lock bolt only goes 1/2 turn into that hole, that concerns me. Is the hole that shallow as not to allow at least a full turn (and it should be more than that)? Can you stick something smaller into that hole to see how deep it is?

The cock is altogether too big and not secure on the pivot. The pivot is just slightly worn but the hole on this cock is also just a bit too big to be a good fit.

This is where you could really use the Vernier caliper I talked about earlier and in this case to measure both the square shaft of the tumbler and the square hole in the Cock, to see how much space has to be filled up.

It may require low temp silver soldering a piece of steel shim stock onto the tumbler square. The tip here is you need to bend the shim stock into an L shape so it will cover two adjoining sides of the tumbler square. Trying to do it on only one side at a time will drive you crazy. (Ask me how I know until I figured that out!) Soldering an L shape piece of shim stock will be done in just one soldering and increase the tumbler square more evenly.

I am new so I was just going by a quick google search so I'll defer to your naming on which screws are which

Sounds good, so I don't get confused! LOL!!

I will re-slot the screws sometime this weekend and get this apart for us to see.

Good plan.

(About contacting Dixie Gun Works)
I haven't, should I?
I am in Canada so things might get expensive fast.

I'm going to suggest contacting Dixie at this point is not a good idea, because you/we haven't figured out yet what you need and what the measurements are of the parts you need. Getting this information needs to come first.

Now it may be eventually cheaper to replace the entire lock than to fix this one. Ever heard the old story about the guy who tried to build a $10,000.00 automobile one part at a time and it wound up costing $40,000.00 that way? This lock might wind up like that, but we don't know that yet.

I'm also not sure if it is cheaper to buy stuff from the U.S. rather than the UK for you? Not sure how import taxes, VAT and differing shipping costs might come into play?

But in the meantime, looking forward to this weekend when you can completely disassemble the lock and have a good set of Vernier Calipers on hand to measure things.

Gus

 

[Aldarith]

You may have to resign yourself to the fact that it may be a favorite wall hanger.

It will never be a wallhanger. If it's unshootable, it will be sold. I bought it because it was less expensive than my other options and will likely be so even with abit of repair money put in.

I haven't observed any issues that suggest it wouldn't be shootable if these issues are worked out.
It was shot before, these issues are all the result of it being used in a theater production - they're parts bin parts. The reason there's an expensive pedersoli part on this cheap gun is because it's what the production company had on hand, they weren't about to buy a specialty cast piece and hand fit it. They just needed the thing to spark and go whoosh!

I imagine that once replaced or modified it will be as it was before - an inexpensive shooter - a little shoddy on workmanship but functional.

To be honest the barrel is probably the nicest part. It looks in good nick, nothing obviously wrong, and it has been proofed.
I will of course check the barrel for issues, as was raised earlier. Assuming no issues, it's ok since it's a proofed barrel.

But the lock first - if the lock doesn't behave, nothing's getting launched in any direction