Trying to understand this “short arbor” on Uberti revolvers

[M. De Land]

Welp, it's not the fact that both methods work (IMHO) but the truth that over time, parts that are not solidly anchored will eventually beat the snot out of each other. If you drag your short arbor gun out once a year for a dozen shots, it probably won't matter and you probably won't do much damage. If you go to the range weekly and run through a tin of 100 caps, it will definitely have an effect on your gun's longevity.

Well the trouble with your premise is that there are many short arbor guns that have been in continual use for decades and are still reliable and accurate. It is true that tight fitting well tuned guns do wear better and usually are more accurate else why tune them but the notion that a short arbor gun is not accurate or long lasting is not universally true across the board, in my experience.

 

[dickydalton]

M. De Land doesn't know what he's talking about here and apparently STILL is lacking in the understanding of the design. I've done exactly this setup for at least 1500 open-top revolvers over the years and there hasn't been one failure. Many of these are Walkers and Dragoons that see full charges of Trip 7 used for hunting as well as long range paper punching.

Smokeless powder is much more punishing than BP and the subs and I've used the same setup ( duh!!!!) on all of them (factory and aftermarket conversions) as well. 23,000 + psi hasn't had any negative effects!!

Mike

HEY! I just looked and you did that on ALL of my guns Mike! Whatever am I gonna do now? Iffin I send em back can you weld up the holes so they won't fall apart on me?

 

[Smokerr]

There's really no "debate" . . . the manufacturers instructions say what to do. Folks "knowing better" than the designers ( because they're "smarter") can ignore the instructions and do as they please. Of course if you bring up the "problem" and the easy fix for it, you're wrong and everybody is an expert and they know best.

Folks just can't believe that engineers in the 1840's could actually know what they were doing.
Amazingly, if you set them up as designed, you don't need "tool steel" wedges that fit up, down, in ,out, no spring needed, blah blah blah (they didn't) . . . Colts design, followed, is basically perfect . . . no need to change.

Mike

In all the years I worked on equipment (motors, engines, boilers, pumps, fans et al) - You followed the mfg guidelines because they knew the design. They designed and I kept it running per their design.

I came up with a few ways to fix it better, but I sure never figured I could design it better. simply not that foolish.

Sometimes mfgs put out manure. Obviously the Colt Open top was not one of those manure designs.

I don't know how many times I found goop on a flare joint. Uhhh guys, it seals with pressure, all the goop in the world does not work.

One guy decided he could silicone seal a seal in place of the gasket on a pump. It leaked, right on top of the managers office. Yep, not designed for a silicone seal sealant to work (yes its wonderful stuff in the right place).

I go with the guy who has spent years coming up with solutions to bad implementation of a design, not people who think they are design geniuses (funny how many experts there are vs people that actually do design and make something)

 

[dickydalton]

That's good evidence but I don't care for the weakening effect of drilling , tapping and threading the arbor end ahead of the slot for taking up wedge slop and hence don't use it or advise others to. I prefer a better wedge and fitting it well to a full strength arbor slot personally.
The screw head spacer you use for arbor end fit seems like a reasonably good idea though .
I also like and have employed the action shield on the Walker although adopting what I feel a better purchase.
Haven't yet felt the need for cap rakes on any of the models I own or have worked on for others but it's easy enough to accomplish should it ever reveal an actual need..

I suggest you read up on that a little better. The screw in the arbor's that Mike works on is for wedge adjustment. You don't screw it in and out to adjust the arbor length!

 

[M. De Land]

I suggest you read up on that a little better. The screw in the arbor's that Mike works on is for wedge adjustment. You don't screw it in and out to adjust the arbor length!

Who ever said anything like what you describe ?
The threaded end description assumes there has to be a set screw taking up the wedge slop referred to and has nothing to do with arbor end fit.

 

[dickydalton]

Who ever said anything like what you describe ?
The threaded end description assumes there has to be a set screw taking up the wedge slop referred to and has nothing to do with arbor end fit.

What did this mean then? quote "The screw head spacer you use for arbor end fit seems like a reasonably good idea though "

 

[45D]

What did this mean then? quote "The screw head spacer you use for arbor end fit seems like a reasonably good idea though "

Hey Dicky, he meant the "pan head screw" head that I use as a spacer. It gets confusing sometimes . . . I know . . . .

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

Yep. For some reason my brain does not get the picture.

But I don't know how a cell phone works either. It just does.

So I can take the idea and while not as tight as Mike does, I can get it a whole lot tighter. I suspect for my purposes its good as I am not doing more than 850 fps. Mike is into + P.

If I was Mike I would fix it to the degree he does, why do any less if you are going there? I may regret not some day. That is on me. I know the issue.

 

[dickydalton]

Hey Dicky, he meant the "pan head screw" head that I use as a spacer. It gets confusing sometimes . . . I know . . . .

Mike

Pretty much everything he has mumbled has confused me.

 

[M. De Land]

Pretty much everything he has mumbled has confused me.

Never have noticed it taking much to confuse you Dicky my Ladd !

 

[dickydalton]

Never have noticed it taking much to confuse you Dicky my Ladd !

You seem to be unable to notice anything!

 

[M. De Land]

You seem to be unable to notice anything!

 

[springfield art]

Please, Italian Factories, cure the Short Arbor Syndrome!

 

[springfield art]

I love JB Weld! Once discovered, never abandoned!

 

[CaptainKirk]

I love JB Weld! Once discovered, never abandoned!

JB Weld is a structural epoxy adhesive. It wears and it can be compressed. OK for a temp fix but not a permanent solution. Just my .02 cents and worth every penny.

 

[Tyler L]

JB Weld is a structural epoxy adhesive. It wears and it can be compressed. OK for a temp fix but not a permanent solution. Just my .02 cents and worth every penny.

I agree. It's a fantastic product, but it doesn't handle compression or impacts well.

By the way, you need to up your prices. The guy down the street charges 2 full cents for his advice!

 

[M. De Land]

JB Weld is a structural epoxy adhesive. It wears and it can be compressed. OK for a temp fix but not a permanent solution. Just my .02 cents and worth every penny.

I once had a rusty 22-250 natives bolt rifle brought to me used for seal hunting I believe it was that had a front sight blade made of nothing more than a file shaped pile of JB weld ! They really like .22 center fire cartridges even for Polar and Brown bear, I kid you not ! I think it might have had a piece of ivory from a Walrus tusk adhered on top at one time. It looked goofy but apparently did the job!

 

[Flint1]

Until some time ago when I started reading all these conversations on short arbors I never knew there was such a problem with Colt replicas. I had always shot a Remington nma. Now I understand the problems with the Ubertis and the short arbors. All of my Colts were originals and I never shot them, but within the last year to year and half I have bought 2 Dragoons, an 1849 Pocket Model, and 1862 Police, all new by Uberti. I have not fired them yet. I don't have a shop, the tools and equipment some of the members here mention, and am not mechanically inclined. I don't even have a vise. When I finally order a Kibler kit I will probably assemble it sitting on a bench on my front porch with it across my lap. That said I put a washer in the arbor well of each of the Dragoons as a spacer. I may not shoot them alot, but when I load them I will probably be using something close to a service load. I don't plan on using them in matches. Other than the weight I can't get used to sighting through that notch in the hammer, so the Remington will continue to be my match revolver. On the other hand the pocket model and the police are small frames and take light loads. It seems I read somewhere on here that the short arbor not being corrected on those types may not be nearly as damaging to the firearm as on the larger models. Should I be able to get away with firing those without worrying about the arbor and not damage the firearm? On all of these mentioned the primary purpose of my firing them will be from an historical perspective, to get the feel occasionally of what is was like in the old days when that was what people had to rely on. Thanks to 45D, Mr. De land, and all others who have been posting on this subject. I have learned alot so far from all of you, and I know I still have alot to learn.

 

[45D]

Until some time ago when I started reading all these conversations on short arbors I never knew there was such a problem with Colt replicas. I had always shot a Remington nma. Now I understand the problems with the Ubertis and the short arbors. All of my Colts were originals and I never shot them, but within the last year to year and half I have bought 2 Dragoons, an 1849 Pocket Model, and 1862 Police, all new by Uberti. I have not fired them yet. I don't have a shop, the tools and equipment some of the members here mention, and am not mechanically inclined. I don't even have a vise. When I finally order a Kibler kit I will probably assemble it sitting on a bench on my front porch with it across my lap. That said I put a washer in the arbor well of each of the Dragoons as a spacer. I may not shoot them alot, but when I load them I will probably be using something close to a service load. I don't plan on using them in matches. Other than the weight I can't get used to sighting through that notch in the hammer, so the Remington will continue to be my match revolver. On the other hand the pocket model and the police are small frames and take light loads. It seems I read somewhere on here that the short arbor not being corrected on those types may not be nearly as damaging to the firearm as on the larger models. Should I be able to get away with firing those without worrying about the arbor and not damage the firearm? On all of these mentioned the primary purpose of my firing them will be from an historical perspective, to get the feel occasionally of what is was like in the old days when that was what people had to rely on. Thanks to 45D, Mr. De land, and all others who have been posting on this subject. I have learned alot so far from all of you, and I know I still have alot to learn.

Nothing at all wrong with using a washer as a spacer ( just remember it's in there when you take it apart for cleaning). Nothing wrong with shooting max loads in the Dragoons as long as the washer / spacer allow the wedge to be "gutentite" !!

Mike

 

[Gino753]

I am a doubter that arbor depth has much if any effect on accuracy as long as the gap is level and remains consistent at firing. I would rather put a feeler gauge in the gap and push a properly fitting wedge to set the depth. I usually don't do anything but push in the wedge to the same depth each time using the keep screw as the depth gauge on the wedge head, once the depth is determine with a feeler gauge.
Most of the attention is focused on the arbor fit in the well but in reality the wedge fit into its barrel mortises and the lower frame bridge fit in both horizontal and vertical axis have far more effect on accuracy both grouping and centering the shots.
You will notice when using a feeler gauge that the gap will most often be tighter at the top than bottom which is good because these guns were designed with the flexing engineered into them. When the light comes on and the ball or bullet hits the forcing cone I can guarantee the gap is not the same any more. Here is where we want the gap as level as can be on both axis. Wither or not the arbor is bottomed out at this point in the cycle is mute as the whole revolver is flexing into it's stressed, stop positions. You cannot make a machine designed to flex operate into a solid rigid unit by bottoming out the arbor. The end of arbor is not loaded at firing, it is unloaded as the barrel tries to separate from the frame. The wedge, bridge and barrel wedge mortises are. These loaded at firing areas are what is important to accuracy and group positioning. I have never bothered with arbor bottom fit but rather the other areas outlined and the guns have always been more accurate than I can hold for over bench or offhand.

Sorry to resurrect this, but im just getting into these guns, and my unfired 2nd Gen Colt 1851 Navy has a short arbor, and the gap between the cylinder face and the forcing cone is indeed tighter on the top of the forcing cone then it is on the bottom.I can’t fit a dollar bill in between the top of the forcing cone and the cylinder, but can just get the dollar in if the bottom

I was going to file away the top of the forcing cone to get an even gap?? So don’t do that?

Also my wedge goes in with thumb pressure just until the tip of the spring in the wedge hits the other side of the barrel wall, we’re it wants to hook under..but I need a soft tap with a rubber mallet to get the last bit of the wedge completely through? Good?