Trying to understand this “short arbor” on Uberti revolvers

[hawkeye2]

IN 1873 with the model P, the Peacemaker, mainly because they wanted to sell to the US Army that insisted on a top strap.

 

[45D]

You keep avoiding the fact that the cylinder velocity continually increases never decreasing in a cock stroke. The hand pressure on the ratchet tooth is continuous into bolt drop and lock up. The hand never slows the rotation velocity in the least hence there is zero braking action taking place from the hand.

Wow . . . Just think about what you posted here !!!
I'll help . . . you said the "hand pressure on the ratchet tooth is CONTINUOUS into bolt drop and lockup. "
You're exactly right!!!! The tooth the hand is engaged with is the one it started with . . . and stays WITH it through lockup!!!! If the cylinder seeds up faster than the hand, it would loose that position (which is exactly what happens with a broken or cracked hand spring . . . It's been that way for almost 200 years . . . it's in manuals . . . ). Ooooooops!!

But hey , this is good information for those that want to learn!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Wow . . . Just think about what you posted here !!!
I'll help . . . you said the "hand pressure on the ratchet tooth is CONTINUOUS into bolt drop and lockup. "
You're exactly right!!!! The tooth the hand is engaged with is the one it started with . . . and stays WITH it through lockup!!!! If the cylinder seeds up faster than the hand, it would loose that position (which is exactly what happens with a broken or cracked hand spring . . . It's been that way for almost 200 years . . . it's in manuals . . . ). Ooooooops!!

But hey , this is good information for those that want to learn!!

Mike

What do you mean oooooooooops, your parroting what I've been saying all along! There is no reduction of cylinder rotation by hand contact. All the hand ever does is push.
Only the bolt contact and its spring tension has any braking action on cylinder rotation.

 

[French Colonial]

"Someone remind me, when did Colt quit making open tops and go to the stronger frame?"

Isn't that a presumptive statement?

No, that is a statement of a fact.

 

[45D]

What do you mean oooooooooops, your parroting what I've been saying all along! There is no reduction of cylinder rotation by hand contact. All the hand ever does is push.
Only the bolt contact and its spring tension has any braking action on cylinder rotation.

No sir, you're flat WRONG!!!
If there was NO spring tension on the hand DURING cycling, the cylinder would over run the position the hand is KEEPING it in. There's a RAMP on the UNDER side of the hand AND THE TOOTH IT'S PUSHING ON TOP!!!!!! THE HAND DOESN'T STAY IN POSITION BY MAGIC !!! IT MAINTAINS THE CYLINDERS POSITION DURING THE CYCLE UNDER SPRING TENSION!!!!
THE WEAKER THE HAND SPRING IS, THE LESS INFLUENCE IT HAS ON THE CYLINDER WHICH IS WHY THROW-BY IS AN INDICATION OF A BROKEN OR CRACKED HAND SPRING . . . AND WHY THERE IS INSTRUCTION ON HOW TO SET THE HAND TENSION SO YOU WON'T HAVE THROW-BY PROBLEMS. WHICH IS WHAT I'VE SAID ALL ALONG!!!!!!!!!
IT'S REALLY VERY SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND IF YOU HAVE ANY MECHANICAL APTITUDE.

Mike

 

[45D]

No, that is a statement of a fact.

How so sir?

Mike

 

[JimCunn]

"No, that is a statement of a fact".

Where can I find a plot of the stress distribution from the finite element analysis?

 

[SPQR70AD]

if someone does not know what a short arbor is remember it is the opposite of a long arbor

 

[French Colonial]

Here is the facts as history has shown us.

Elmer Kieth who knew both open tops and closed tops picked which one to develop his magnum
Dick Casull picked what kind of frame to develop his cartridges (look him up if you do not know about him)
John Linebaugh picked what kind of frame
Ross Seyfried picked what kind of frame

Name one developer of hard hitting magnum cartridges who has used the open top frame. You cannot.

So, here is the challenge which everyone of you open top fans ignore.

Use the most massive open top you can find (Walker, Dragoon, whatever) rechamber it for a hard hitting Casull or Linebaugh cartridge and PROVE your assertions in the real world.

You won't because you cannot and so you join 45D in the ignore because you are ridiculous box

 

[45D]

Here is the facts as history has shown us.

Elmer Kieth who knew both open tops and closed tops picked which one to develop his magnum
Dick Casull picked what kind of frame to develop his cartridges (look him up if you do not know about him)
John Linebaugh picked what kind of frame
Ross Seyfried picked what kind of frame

Elmer Kieth didn't "pick" between an iron open-top platform and a top strap platform. The open-top hadn't been made for 60 years and to add to it, nobody was producing them at that time!!
Neither did Dick Casull, John or anyone else later on. Did you interview any of them about this or is this your "idea" of what their thought was or must have been.?

So i have to figure that when you bought whatever vehicle you drive currently, you concidered the Model T as a possibility?

Dick Casull . . . (look him up if you do not know about him)

seems a little "presumptive" to me . . .

So, here is the challenge which everyone of you open top fans ignore.

Use the most massive open top you can find (Walker, Dragoon, whatever) rechamber it for a hard hitting Casull or Linebaugh cartridge and PROVE your assertions in the real world.

Funny how you and MD throw out the list of Top strap SA's that can't handle +p's in 45acp or 45C, what are they? Top Straps that cut it because they're Top Straps?
Now you've decided that Top Strap SA's that can't handle Casull and Linebaugh cartridges are . . . not Top Strap guns either??

 

[D Yager]

What do you mean oooooooooops, your parroting what I've been saying all along! There is no reduction of cylinder rotation by hand contact. All the hand ever does is push.
Only the bolt contact and its spring tension has any braking action on cylinder rotation.

So did you try running a revolver with the hand spring removed, or have you ever seen one with a broken or weak hand spring? It's amazing how you refuse to learn anything here. I stated earlier that anything that drags on the cylinder is going to create friction, it's simple physics, The majority of that friction is coming from the hand spring pressing the hand into the ratchet and slowing down the cylinder. I've set up Walkers and pocket pistols that had throw-by problems and guess what fixed it, a stronger hand spring, go figure. I guess in your world such things as friction and physics don't come into play.

 

[M. De Land]

So did you try running a revolver with the hand spring removed, or have you ever seen one with a broken or weak hand spring? It's amazing how you refuse to learn anything here. I stated earlier that anything that drags on the cylinder is going to create friction, it's simple physics, The majority of that friction is coming from the hand spring pressing the hand into the ratchet and slowing down the cylinder. I've set up Walkers and pocket pistols that had throw-by problems and guess what fixed it, a stronger hand spring, go figure. I guess in your world such things as friction and physics don't come into play.

The hand never slows down in a cock stroke , all it ever does is continuously push on the ratchet tooth in a cock stroke. The sole purpose of it's spring is to maintain hand contact with the ratchet tooth.
When the hand withdraws over the back ramp of the tooth at the hammer drop is the only increase of spring tension on it's movement but this has nothing to do with slowing/braking cylinder rotation as it still is in lock up at hand withdrawal.

 

[45D]

When the hand withdraws over the back ramp of the tooth at the hammer drop is the only increase of spring tension . . .

Yep, and if the cyl tried to go "past" the hand, the SAME THING WOULD KEEP IT FROM DOING SO !!

MIKE

 

[D Yager]

The hand never slows down in a cock stroke , all it ever does is continuously push on the ratchet tooth in a cock stroke. The sole purpose of it's spring is to maintain hand contact with the ratchet tooth.
When the hand withdraws over the back ramp of the tooth at the hammer drop is the only increase of spring tension on it's movement but this has nothing to do with slowing/braking cylinder rotation as it still is in lock up at hand withdrawal.

So in your world there is no spring tension at the ratchet? Only when the hand is riding over the tooth as the hammer falls? So what is that clicking sound one hears when the hammer is at half cock the cylinder is turned, mice...crickets? What about during carry up, there's no tension then? Really? Sometimes it's best to remain silent and be thought foolish than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[Smokerr]

Not an area I have thought of. My Swing Open revolvers also have drag marks. I tended to think the hand had reached its limit of travel and the bolt snapped into the notch. Not something I had seriously thought about.

But clearly it needs to be coming up at the right time or it will not snap in. I checked the older 47 Walker Cylinder and by golly, there are the faint drag marks BEFORE the slot.

 

[Smokerr]

Elmer Kieth who knew both open tops and closed tops picked which one to develop his magnum

What rock did you crawl out from under? Related to RVW?

You do know the Colt (aka Open Top) factory burned down in the early 1860s? I mean really, get an energy drink and wake up.

Keith was not a gun builder. He was a user and a cartridge innovator. Like the rest he took what was available and Open tops had not been available for nigh onto 70 years.

Sheese.

 

[Dude]

... the Colt (aka Open Top) factory burned down in the early 1860s?

The Colt factory was rebuilt and was producing open tops as late as 1872 - and perhaps even for a period after that. I don't know that the introduction of the top strap in 73 ended all production of the open tops.

 

[Dickydalton]

I'm thinking the diploma in Gumballology MDL has from French Colonial University isn't a reflection of intelligence.

 

[Smokerr]

The Colt factory was rebuilt and was producing open tops as late as 1872 - and perhaps even for a period after that. I don't know that the introduction of the top strap in 73 ended all production of the open tops.

I stand corrected. The core of it stands, no one had made open top in 50+ years so there was not even an option for that.

Now if Keith had been a gun builder, he could have taken an old open top and built it up. But he would have been working with materials dating back to the 1870 era.

When Keith started his work Model T was no longer made either. Nor steam tractors. Shoot, someone figured out the Wrights had put the tail on the wrong end of the aircraft by then.

Keith did not decide diddly, he took what was being made and the adventure began.

Its simply an absurd statement showing how desperate FC is and reflects horribly on his thought process (well text process, clearly no thought there)

 

[M. De Land]

So in your world there is no spring tension at the ratchet? Only when the hand is riding over the tooth as the hammer falls? So what is that clicking sound one hears when the hammer is at half cock the cylinder is turned, mice...crickets? What about during carry up, there's no tension then? Really? Sometimes it's best to remain silent and be thought foolish than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Who ever said there is no spring tension on the hand.?All I said is it does not increase in the up stroke and has no ability to brake cylinder rotation even if it did. The tension at the top of the stroke is no greater than at the bottom and why would it be with the chimney mortise parallel front to back on the spring track. There is no braking action taking place from the hand spring tension because the hand never stops pushing on the ratchet tooth until the bolt drop stops it.
The only time the hand spring increases tension on the hand is when it is cammed over the top of the next/following ratchet tooth at the hammer drop and it's withdrawal. .