Trying to understand this “short arbor” on Uberti revolvers

[M. De Land]

If fixing things the RIGHT way is "closed minded", that's fine with me.
And actually, if you understand the CORRECT "repair" and "tune", it DOES allow you to modify setups for better performance.
I replace the flat springs with coil and coil /torsion springs. In the case of the Remington, the main spring can be converted as well (the Colt actions retain the flat main). The most important part though is, the revolvers FEEL like a tuned Colt or Remington or Ruger. The spring rates are the same, the "clicks" happen at the right time, tuning/modifying the action parts for longevity AND speed (some even more so).
Side by side they look like a factory revolver ( except for the pretty screws!!) but mine run like a total beast. That's what folks want and that's what i do.

Mike

Well I'm sure glad Linebaugh ,Gallegar , Bowin ,Casull and even Ruger were able to think past Colt's design parameters.

 

[Trev]

1 -I apologize, i don't have a calibrated pencil to test with. The point is, a WEAK hand spring will allow throw-by, a heavy spring won't.
2- If throw-by is a problem, and you fix it as instructed by a- Colt manual instructions, b- a tuner that has 65 +yrs experience that was trained by Colt or c- use Jerry Kuhnhausen's book describing the fix . . . it will be a correct fix because all 3 fixes ARE the Colt fix!!! It's always worked for me, my customers are happy, their cylinders don't have drag lines on them and the revolvers work as designed, not like a "shade tree mechanic" "figured sumptin out" that could work sorta".

Mike

I replace the flat springs with coil and coil /torsion springs.

Is this the "Colt fix" from their manual? After reading your post 8:06pm I was going to ask what Colt and Mr. Kuhnhausen did, then I decided to go back through the thread and see if it had already been posted, I haven't done that yet.

I was going to ask, because frankly D Yager's suggestion of "the best bet is to set it up with a Ruger type hand spring and plunger" seems like a Popular Mechanic fix to me. I have no doubt that it works, and works well. A lot of those back yard small block mods went on to win dirt races. I just wondered what "the Colt fix" was?
The coil spring and plunger might not be something I could do with hand tools.

 

[D Yager]

We do the Ruger setup because it won't break like a flat spring. It can be done with simple hand tools as long as you can drill a hole in the right place and keep it straight. And once again Mr. Deland has refused to see what is right in front of him. He is sure stuck on the idea of no tension on the hand spring and that it can't slow the cylinder down despite having several people that are experienced in these things and Kuhnhausens shop manual telling the same thing. Again it shows limited understanding of the single action platform and a stagnated attitude towards learning things outside of his wheelhouse. Lets get the popcorn and see what else he sees fit to entertain us with.

 

[45D]

Is this the "Colt fix" from their manual? After reading your post 8:06pm I was going to ask what Colt and Mr. Kuhnhausen did, then I decided to go back through the thread and see if it had already been posted, I haven't done that yet.

I was going to ask, because frankly D Yager's suggestion of "the best bet is to set it up with a Ruger type hand spring and plunger" seems like a Popular Mechanic fix to me. I have no doubt that it works, and works well. A lot of those back yard small block mods went on to win dirt races. I just wondered what "the Colt fix" was?
The coil spring and plunger might not be something I could do with hand tools.

Yes, action parts are still setup to do exactly what, when and how they do with the spring weight that a tuned flat sprung revolver would have. The biggest difference is the longevity aspect. This includes the "Ruger" coil and plunger (i call mine "spring and pushrod" cause I grew up in a garage) even though it's actually a "flaw" to a Colt action.
The Ruger had a 3 screw action until the New Model ( 2 screw/pin) replaced it ( except for the ROA). The weak link in both actions is the c&p hand spring because it's not strong enough to stop throw-by from happening. In fact, if you "short stroke" a Blackhawk or a ROA, you can demonstrate throw-by at will!!
Cowboy shooters have a name for it - "Ruger run around" !! It goes - BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG , CLICK, CLICK, CLICK, CLICK, CLICK, BANG !!!
I fix that problem with a larger diameter "push rod" and stronger spring.
So, the Colt parts remain in those actions, the timing remains, the spring weight stays just with more durable springing. Same with Remingtons and Rugers.

Mike

 

[Trev]

We do the Ruger setup because it won't break like a flat spring.

But does Colt do that or is it just sumptin that y'all figured out that could work?

 

[Trev]

So it's not the fix that Colt put in the manual?

 

[D Yager]

But does Colt do that or is it just sumptin that y'all figured out that could work?

Don't know about what Colt is doing with the modern stuff as I don't usually go there. I first saw this done by a fellow named Pettifogger and Mike showed me how refine it. The springs I use are pretty strong for the size and they seem to do a really decent job of preventing throw by.

 

[45D]

So it's not the fix that Colt put in the manual?

Trev, I don't know if you're going for a "gotcha" or if it's a serious question but the Colt fix is to adjust the tension of the flat spring until it passes the "throw-by test".
Do you have a Kuhnhausen book ?

 

[45D]

Ultimately, the Colt fix is to TUNE the flat spring until it can perform as intended. If you can't get the tension needed, you may need a new spring and go from there.
Modified springs or replaced spring types does not replace the action itself, it DOES "modernize" it somewhat.

Mike

 

[Trev]

It just seems contradictory to the post I quoted. I'm all for shade tree mechanics, and I'm sure that your workaround is a good one. I was just trying to clarify in my mind if Colt had come up with this fix after 200 years (someone said that, I don't think it was that long) or not.
I sometimes get hungup on things that seem to be self-contradictory, carry on, I think I understand now.

 

[45D]

It just seems contradictory to the post I quoted. I'm all for shade tree mechanics, and I'm sure that your workaround is a good one. I was just trying to clarify in my mind if Colt had come up with this fix after 200 years (someone said that, I don't think it was that long) or not.
I sometimes get hungup on things that seem to be self-contradictory, carry on, I think I understand now.

I posted "almost 200 yrs"(at least the first time). The Paterson came out in the 1830's.

The point is the parts should do what they do as they were designed and WHEN they're supposed to. How they are powered to do so isn't necessarily relevant. So that means ( for the sake of the hand spring topic) if throw-by is a problem, I'll just make the bolt drop earlier with a stronger spring tension!! That'll fix that !!!!
It may in fact do what you want it to do but what else is going to happen? Extra wear on the cam, bolt arm, pretty "ring" on the cylinder . . . gouging the cylinder . . . That's not how Colt would repair it.
They would adjust/replace the hand spring so it would do the job intended . . .
It would still look and work like it came from Colt instead of someone's kitchen table.

Mike

 

[Trev]

I had suspected that they would replace the hand spring. Or perhaps reshape/re-temper the old one, but never having previously had any interest in such stuff, I really am just guessing by what I'd do. Right now I'd kinda like to look at the Army's manual that the armorers worked with. Field repairs had to be thing.

 

[45D]

I had suspected that they would replace the hand spring. Or perhaps reshape/re-temper the old one, but never having previously had any interest in such stuff, I really am just guessing by what I'd do. Right now I'd kinda like to look at the Army's manual that the armorers worked with. Field repairs had to be thing.

If you could get a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book it would fascinate you. The "biggest" thing you'll learn is that most of the "process" for the Colt action isn't necessarily intuitive. You may THINK you know a how or why but when you get the "rest of the story" about that part, it may be from "left field" !! But then, it'll makes total sense!!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Is this the "Colt fix" from their manual? After reading your post 8:06pm I was going to ask what Colt and Mr. Kuhnhausen did, then I decided to go back through the thread and see if it had already been posted, I haven't done that yet.

I was going to ask, because frankly D Yager's suggestion of "the best bet is to set it up with a Ruger type hand spring and plunger" seems like a Popular Mechanic fix to me. I have no doubt that it works, and works well. A lot of those back yard small block mods went on to win dirt races. I just wondered what "the Colt fix" was?
The coil spring and plunger might not be something I could do with hand tools.

Flat springs give the best response time for bolt or trigger and if made of stainless spring stock are as reliable as a coil and plunger and more reliable than wire. The other advantage is you can use the same screws as came with the factory spring. I made and installed quite a few of these and never have had one break. I use the same for hand spring replacement.
It's one of those useless shade tree ideas!

 

[M. De Land]

If you could get a copy of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book it would fascinate you. The "biggest" thing you'll learn is that most of the "process" for the Colt action isn't necessarily intuitive. You may THINK you know a how or why but when you get the "rest of the story" about that part, it may be from "left field" !! But then, it'll makes total sense!!!
View attachment 379076
Mike

I agree and have most if not all his manuals. He has a lot of good ideas on most of his thinking.

 

[D Yager]

Torsion type springs are not hard to make and are very consistent. Don't see why you couldn't use the same screws that came from the revolver. I don't change the screws when I tune a revolver.

Flat springs give the best response time for bolt or trigger and if made of stainless spring stock are as reliable as a coil and plunger and more reliable than wire. The other advantage is you can use the same screws as came with the factory spring. I made and installed quite a few of these and never have had one break. I use the same for hand spring replacement.
It's one of those useless shade tree ideas!

 

[M. De Land]

Torsion type springs are not hard to make and are very consistent. Don't see why you couldn't use the same screws that came from the revolver. I don't change the screws when I tune a revolver.

Most certainly if it's long enough to accommodate the wire width. Most bolt/trigger spring screws are pretty short and squat and I like to have as much thread depth as cross diameter as a general rule if possible . I have seen more than one bolt spring screw extend through the frame and scrub a ring on the cylinder.
I've had to replace wire torsion springs but never a flat spring made of stainless spring stock.

 

[45D]

I use the same screws too

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I use the same screws too
View attachment 379160

Mike

Why not stick with Colts simple original flat spring design and use a better alloy that doesn't fatigue and break ?

 

[45D]

MDL -
Well, I can't "quote" your question so I'll answer without.

I use coil springs for the same reason Freedom Arms, Magnum Research and Ruger do . . . they work and make the actions extremely reliable. My customers tend to like 19th century SA's that run like modern revolvers with the same reliability. Besides that they're -
1. Simple to make
2. Fast to make ( saves lots of time)
3. Mine have been designed specifically for the revolvers i service (Colt, Remington and Ruger).
4. Parts mods for use are Simple.
5. Folks expect it.

You know, the only part that really needs to move fast is the hammer and thats why the one spring that stays flat is the main spring. I do offer a coil main conversion for Remingtons though.

Mike