TVM rifles

[galamb]

I guess to sum up the point I was trying to make (maybe un-clearly) was:

With a semi-custom gun - base model - you should expect it to function properly - but if you are expecting a perfectly tuned piece of "art" your expectations are too high - even if 1000 or 1500 bucks seems like an excessive amount of money to you - after the cost of components there just isn't a whole lot of money left over.

Most locks and triggers directly from the source or supplier "work", but they will work a whole lot smoother/nicer/faster etc if they are disassembled, polished, meticulously tuned.

I have spend "hours" tuning a double set trigger until I was totally satisfied with it.

Sure, it worked after initial installation but I wasn't satisfied because I knew it could be better.

Time is money if you are doing it for a living. If you are only going to make a couple hundred bucks to start with are you willing to spend many extra hours making something "work better" if you could be on your next build if you are not being compensated for your time?

And with a "pre-set" price that has been set to the point where "if I spend more than 30 hours on this rifle I will start to lose money" - to fine tune it may leave you making 5 bucks an hour.

The time required to turn a good rifle into a great rifle is reflected in that extra 500, 1000 or more dollars, even if the rifle is relatively plain otherwise.

The custom builder knows that he/she might spend 10 hours fine tuning the lock and maybe 3 hours on the trigger(s) etc and that is reflected in the price - on some they may get "lucky" and it takes no time at all, on others it may be longer than they normally plan for - but their price has left some room for that - they don't work on volume.

Most suppliers of kits estimate 100 hours to complete a basic design such as a trade gun or poorboy. Now if you are doing it all the time obviously you will be a little quicker but even still, if you have a basic rifle listed for $1100 and the components are running about $650 that only leaves $450 for labor, shop supplies, utilities and other overhead - not alot of room there..

But like many things, it's tough to explain why something you "can't see" bumps the price up so much.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Does your price structure for TVM take into account the huge discounts afforded to an outfit that buys in quantity ? They are buying wholesale and getting bulk discounts. Granted they are not cuttin a fat hog but they certainly are making enough for wages, utilities, personal pay, profit etc. or they would not be doing it. A business can only be in business if it makes money.

I would wager that you would be much closer if you reverse the numbers.

 

[Alden]

In respnse to Kopfjaeger "If a builder didn't make the rifle the way you wanted it why buy it, and keep it."

TVM didn't make the rifle for me... my friend decided to sell it to me and his offer and payment terms were such that I couldn't turn him down.

That goes a long way. Sold a whole BIL an early Sharps -- he believed he "got over on me" thinking I didn't know what it was. Sold him a beautiful refinished Trapdoor from a gunsmith friend at my cost (that was missing a cock position) he just had to have and his wife can use for self-defense in an emergency with #4 shot .410 shells. I offered him a like-new Ruger .22 bolt-action at "brother-in-law-prices" meaning I'd have given it to him for free if he asked but he turned it down. And when he said he wanted a single barrel Trap shotgun I got him a brand new old stock premium one which he also turned down, sight unseen, but when he saw it and I told him it was my new main competition gun which he'd declined he claimed he hadn't and stopped talking to me -- it was that good a deal and is that beautiful. And a couple of years later was no longer my main Trap competition gun. LOL

There are alot of factors that go into making decisions including buying and keeping guns. Sometimes they are informed. Sometimes not. Sometimes they are good ones. Sometimes they are bad ones. Often we just make the best choice we can given the reasonable options we have.

As for my TVM, they called me when they shipped it and warned me it probably wasn't quite what I wanted but they'd take care of it. When I asked Matt, in person, FACE TO FACE, to do just that he said he can't help me. I trusted TVM for my custom order -- I mean, how could they screw it up? Well, I got scammed IMO, and burned for sure. First and last time. How far do you want me to take that? LOL

It's not like they ran away with all my money -- they just were a little odd to do business with at the time and delivered something that I would never have bought, for the price I paid, if it were sitting on a rack. YOU can learn from my lesson, on me.

Cheers

 

[kaintuck]

as i said before, my 1st rifle was a kit from TVM...and i still buy some parts from them. I like them, nice down-home folks. they have a business of making them, so the prices reflect time vs product. I understand that. A shooters rifle yes, a grand family heirloom that shoots also, maybe not, but that's what 'custom' builders strive for in most cases. Therefore the price gulf.different schools, and different add-ons make it $$$.
I did call and ask if TVM dose base work for Sitting Fox guns...and she said no.....so that is put to rest~!
I like them, Tip Curtis, Dave Keck, Barbie Chambers, TOTW as suppliers/builders.....I know there are others out there, but I have had alot of $$$ go to these 5, so can only speak from experience.

and remember.....this is ONE type of product that the damn Chinese won't ever get to import! We will stand the tests of chinamart selling crap and putting american jobs out of the country!!! :stir:

 

[Alden]

I don't get the China comment. How much should I really care where someone is if they are robbing me and, conversely, where they are if they deliver what I want, including quality, when, for the price agreed to?

That "down-home" country goodness, good ol' boy, nonsense you can keep -- I don't buy that snake oil. Hear it goes good on grits though...

 

[galamb]

Does your price structure for TVM take into account the huge discounts afforded to an outfit that buys in quantity ?

There certainly is volume discounts, but they may not be as huge as in other industry.

If you buy a single flint lock from Chambers it's 145 bucks - buy between 4 and 9 it drops all the way to 140 bucks each - now if you buy more than 9, yes you get a decent savings at 112 dollars a lock, which is what, about a 20'ish % discount - fair enough.

The barrel companies offer similar discounts if you order more than 3 of the same barrel - but this is not like other industries that see 100 and 200% markups between the supplier, the middleman and the consumer.

In custom muzzle loader components the market just isn't big enough to get those kind of volume discounts.

CVA couldn't justify their side hammer business - stated the demand was too low to be viable. Thompson Center no longer lists a side hammer rifle.

It certainly costs more, at all levels, if you only want "10 widgets" as opposed to 1000.

I'm not trying to say that these builders either custom or semi-custom are living in poverty, but they are probably not turning huge profits either..

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Thing is most of these outfits are buying the lock kits from chambers and assembling them in house unless you specify a lock from Chambers, that in and of itself a substantial savings.

Then there is the issue of the triggers, again, unless you specify a trigger group from Davis you are going to get a much cheaper trigger group most likely made in house or by a jobber that cranks them out en mass.

 

[galamb]

That goes back to my earlier comments that for the money, the cost of a basic rifle pretty much accurately reflects the cost of parts and the time to assemble them into a usable, but not finely tuned rifle.

I personally see a basic rifle from builders such as the one being discussed to be a good value.

If you start opting for upgrades the price will and should go up.

As long as the expectation of perfection, smoothness, finish level is in line with the reality of the options out there, most (buyers) should be satisfied with the product.

But if the perspective is, 1000 or 1500 bucks is alot of money (perspective) and this thing should be flawlessly smooth/tuned/finished/inlet etc with the best components on the shelf, that's simply over-expectation...

 

[rich pierce]

This has been discussed many times. Many are very happy with their TVMs. It depends a lot on expectations. It's possible to get quite a fine custom rifle from makers like Mike Brooks and others in the $2500 range particularly if you're not looking for much carving or engraving. Those rifles from pro custom builders who are well grounded in historical Kentucky rifles are a different product entirely, if one has the eyes for it. It's a question of what one wants and can afford. I'm not in favor of bashing products beyond pointing out their attributes. I don't think we should discuss business dealings in graphic detail. It's kind of like talking about your date last night. Might have been great, might have been disappointing, might have been a freak show. A lot depends on expectations and who you are, too.

 

[faste350]

anyone dealt with them? sitting fox isn't looking too good. thinking of ordering one in the white from tvm.

since starting this post, i have been looking at other options. there has been alot of great information and discussion to learn from. i sent for a quote to sitting fox and got back a price for nothing like what i was looking for. in the mean time i had been looking online and ended up buying a custom gun made possibly back in the 70's or maybe 80's. its got a douglas xx 38" .32 cal barrel, a newer l&r lock and nice set of set triggers. it has a nice patch box and a couple other little extras and all are steel. basically a southern style poor boy. the wood could use refinishing, but it does have a nice patina and i think i will leave it alone. still tweeking and fine tuning the lock, but i figured i would have to do some things to it to get it the way i want it. overall i'am happy with going the used route.

 

[William O.]

In respnse to Kopfjaeger "If a builder didn't make the rifle the way you wanted it why buy it, and keep it."

TVM didn't make the rifle for me... my friend decided to sell it to me and his offer and payment terms were such that I couldn't turn him down.

That goes a long way. As for my TVM, they called me when they shipped it and warned me it probably wasn't quite what I wanted but they'd take care of it. When I asked Matt, in person, FACE TO FACE, to do just that he said he can't help me. I trusted TVM for my custom order -- I mean, how could they screw it up? Well, I got scammed IMO, and burned for sure. First and last time. How far do you want me to take that? LOL

It's not like they ran away with all my money -- they just were a little odd to do business with at the time and delivered something that I would never have bought, for the price I paid, if it were sitting on a rack. YOU can learn from my lesson, on me. Cheers

See, I wouldn't have been happy either if that was the case with me. I wouldn't have ordered a rifle with a patchbox or with extra fancy wood and so far, average priced barrels have allowed me to shoot plenty of bullseyes. Had I originally ordered it from TVM then the final price would have been lower too and perhaps affordable (for me) as well. If I ordered the stock to have a 15 inch length of pull and it arrived with only 14 1/2 as it is now, then I would have a problem, but that too wouldn't have been a quality concern. I'm still keeping mine for a long time to come.

 

[Pete G]

Funny you mention LOP Bull. That was one of the things Matt oddly argued with me about. This was many years ago now but I gave TVM the LOP I wanted on the model I was ordering -- I think it was 5/8" longer than his standard. And for some reason that was a problem!

I wear 36" dress-shirt sleeves if that means anything to you. I shoot competively and know gun fit. I knew the Early Virginia. Well, he got the LOP right at my insistance. Not a big fan of the two-shade darker butt than the wood next to it nor sure its quality level would be worth $175 extra...

Increasing LOP also increases drop. I suspect they use a standard pattern and were reluctant to modify it. My impression is that TVM is more semi-production rather than semi-custom.

 

[kopfjaeger]

:haha: :rotf: :haha:

"LOL"

 

[Cowboy2]

When I talked with them on the phone I told them I would have to make a road trip from Texas to see their workmanship and quality. There was a reluctance then, there was no "come on down" and let's talk.

You might not want to read too much into that. In the last year or so they moved their operation from Baldwin to Natchez, and the new setup might not be all that presentable yet. A few years ago, when they were still in North Mississippi, I called and drove over to check out the product. They were the friendliest bunch of people you could hope to meet. I talked a good couple of hours with Toni, she and the gang showed me around the shop, introduced me to everyone, and answered all my questions (including some I'd never thought to ask). After handling several of the different models, she even drug her personal rifle out for me to handle since I also shoot lefty and there wasn't a finished one on hand. And the guns looked great.

I haven't ordered one from them yet, but that's been a money and timing issue on my end. I can't speak to the historical correctness and whatnot of their guns, I simply lack the knowledge, but I can say I was impressed with the guns I saw.

Which is to say, there weren't any hammer-wielding monkeys at the work stations.

 

[roundball]

You might not want to read too much into that. In the last year or so they moved their operation from Baldwin to Natchez, and the new setup might not be all that presentable yet. A few years ago, when they were still in North Mississippi, I called and drove over to check out the product. They were the friendliest bunch of people you could hope to meet. I talked a good couple of hours with Toni, she and the gang showed me around the shop, introduced me to everyone, and answered all my questions (including some I'd never thought to ask). After handling several of the different models, she even drug her personal rifle out for me to handle since I also shoot lefty and there wasn't a finished one on hand. And the guns looked great.

I haven't ordered one from them yet, but that's been a money and timing issue on my end. I can't speak to the historical correctness and whatnot of their guns, I simply lack the knowledge, but I can say I was impressed with the guns I saw.

Which is to say, there weren't any hammer-wielding monkeys at the work stations.

Well said...IMO, we (the ML community) get great benefit from a place like TVM, especially now considering that S&W has deep-sixed the traditionally oriented line of T/C's MLs after buying them out so they're no longer even an option. And we've seen postings / photos of low quality work from some independent builders.

If my only choices had been $2500-$5000 long guns with 1.5-2 year waiting periods, I wouldn't have been able to enjoy the years of excellent results I've already had shooting / hunting Early Virginia and Late Lancaster long guns TVM built to my specs.

I only had one issue which was the very first Flintlock TVM built for me and it wasn't the quality of the work. It was a beautiful Early Virginia...the problem was an administrative screw-up getting their hands crossed on 2 work orders:
Instead of aged steel barrel & lock they were 'browned'...and LOP & drop were not what I had spec'd out.
They fell all over themselves apologizing, sending me prepaid return shipping labels, redid everything correctly and got it back to me within 30 days.
Standing behind their work like they did got them repeat business for 3 more builds...and if I had the money / need for another one TVM would be building it.

 

[FishDFly]

"You might not want to read too much into that. In the last year or so they moved their operation from Baldwin to Natchez".

The year was 2008 and they had not moved. I was willing to spend my time and money to see their product offerings.

At any rate, TVM and the folks convinced me how not to spend my money.

Seems some folks are happy or some are not happy with YVM, I am happy that I have my money and was not disappointed in a purchase.

I have a rule, I don't spend my money to be miserable.

 

[Alden]

Funny you mention LOP Bull. That was one of the things Matt oddly argued with me about. This was many years ago now but I gave TVM the LOP I wanted on the model I was ordering -- I think it was 5/8" longer than his standard. And for some reason that was a problem!

I wear 36" dress-shirt sleeves if that means anything to you. I shoot competively and know gun fit. I knew the Early Virginia. Well, he got the LOP right at my insistance. Not a big fan of the two-shade darker butt than the wood next to it nor sure its quality level would be worth $175 extra...

Increasing LOP also increases drop. I suspect they use a standard pattern and were reluctant to modify it. My impression is that TVM is more semi-production rather than semi-custom.

I understand. They used to ask what LOP you wanted and again I knew the gun and its drop at comb as you think they would...

I think they are more semi trailer than semi production and especially semi custom.

 

[Crow Beads]

The UPS truck just brought me a brand new TVM late Lancaster flintlock rifle. It is exactly as ordered: plain maple with a medium brown finish, a browned swamped .45/42" barrel and brass furniture. The finish is a lovely satin with some nice subtle figuring. I didn't want premium maple since so as not to fret over nicks and other wear and tear. The wood to metal finish is flawless. The rifle feels light and well balanced. I couldn't ask for more at any price.

This is my third TVM. The first two were also excellent. I can't wait to make smoke with it. Yes I would and probably will buy one or more in the future. Melanie and Matt were great to work with but I still miss Toni

 

[hanshi]

Yes, Toni is sorely missed by many of us. Congratulations on another fine TVM rifle. Let me warn you, however, I tried the "plain maple" approach twice and STILL agonized over each and every scratch.

 

[TLanoy]

What, no pics? :nono: