Updated range report - problem fixed!

[nodakhorseman]

Well, time to provide an update on my latest visit to the range with my .50 cal GPR percussion. I posted my original "sighting woes" this past Saturday and received a TON of useful advice from a bunch of folks. :bow: :thumbsup:

When I took my GPR to the range for the first time this past Thursday, I left frustrated. :cursing: After 25 - 30 shots, all my shots were slightly to the left of center (no big deal), but all over the place in regard to elevation. Based on some darn good advice, I made some changes to my shooting loads.

Before shooting, I picked up some J-B bore cleaning compound and gave the bore a good work out. I decided to give this a shot and hopefully bypass the next 100 shots before she would settle in.

The adjustments I made to my load were the following:

- 70 grains of FFFg Goex instead of 80 grains of Pyrodex Select
- a .018" pre-lubed patch instead of a .015" pre-lubed patch
- I also ran a spit patch and then both sides of a dry patch between each shot--something I didn't nearly do last time

I shot this combination for 5 - 8 shots or so with the gun shooting a bit tighter groups than last time, but still not what I was after--especially at only 50 yards.

Soon after I noticed a HUGE change in the gun. All of the sudden, she settled right in for the remainder of the session. In total, I shot somewhere over 30 rounds. I moved out to 75 yards and continued to see great results. I'd like to see my groups tighten up a little bit, and I'm sure they will. However, out to 75 yards, she's ready to go for deer. Over the next week, I'll head back to the range and get comfortable at 100 yds.

For me, the bottom line is that without the advice from everyone on this site, I'd still be spinning my wheels. Thanks to everyone who shortened up my learning curve!!! :bow: :grin: :hatsoff:

After an afternoon on the range I have a few questions and observations...

Questions:

- What do you guys use for cleaning patches at the range? The cleaning patches I'm using were a bit expensive (in my opinion) and I went through a ton of them.
- I've sighted in my GPR for the purpose of deer hunting. I've always use Pyrodex and this is my first time using black powder. In Pyrodex, I've always used 90 grains of FFg. Will the 70 grain load of Goex FFFg produce good stopping power on deer out to 100 yards? If not, should I be working on a hotter load?

Observations:

- I've heard everyone go back and forth on how black powder is better than Pyrodex and that shooting Black might produce a better experience. For me, it DID produce a better experience, because my gun is now shooting accurately. But otherwise, Pyrodex still has that rotten egg smell and they both smoke a lot. Black powder "feels" more traditional I must admit.
- While shooting black powder for the first time has brought me new joy, it has also gotten me in trouble on the first day. My wife voiced her displeasure for the "egg" smell that emanated throughout our house! I'm now relegated to cleaning my smoke pole in the garage!!!

Thanks again for everyone who gave me some advice and thanks for this website!

--Nodakhorseman

 

[nw_hunter]

75 grains of 3f Goex should give you about the same results as 85 of Pyro.Might want to work it up to 80 , if the groups stay tight. Plenty of punch in that 50 for deer size animals.

For cleaning patches, I use old cotton t shirts.I cut them into squares and store in zip-lock bags

 

[paulvallandigham]

What do the patches tell you? Are you even looking at them? I am talking about the patches that wrap the ball, and leave the muzzle. You have to pick those up and look at them- each of them, to find out what the gun is doing with that new load. The Targets are fine, but they also are biased regarding your shooting skills on that particular day.

As to the sulfur, I answered this yesterday. Take a small canteen, or container of water with you to the range. Take some liquid dish soap. At the range, when you finish shooting, put some liquid soap on a cleaning patch-- I buy flannel cotton patches by the 1,000 that are 3 inch square, and used them from both smoothbores, and my .50 cal. rifle-- and plug the hole under the nipple with another cleaning patch. just stuff it in there. Now pour some water- as little as 1/4 cup of water will do-- down the barrel, and run the cleaning patch with soap down and SLOWLY pump the patch up and down. Now, pull the rod, jag, and patch out of the barrel, and put your thumb over the muzzle of the barrel. Shake the gun up and down. Then, pour the water and soap out of the barrel from the muzzle. It will be full of black gunk, but also will have the majority of that sulfur. Leave it at the range. I then like to wipe the bore down with another patch- not to really dry it complete, but simply to remove any residue that is loose, and get it out of the barrel. Leave the dirty patches in the garbage or burn barrel at the range. I leave the plug in the bolster, and just transport the gun home, where I can finish the cleaning process more completely. With percussion guns, I like to remove the barrel from the stock, and put it in a bucket of water, before pumping water in and out of the flash channel with a wet cleaning patch, and soap in the water. The high pressure jet of water blasts loose any residue in the flash channel, or powder chamber( if you have one) and leaves them very clean. Do expect to have to empty that bucket of water at least once, and replace it with clean water to rinse. Rinse in tepid water to cool the barrel to air temperature before actually drying the bore.

Are you using an OP wad, or filler as a firewall between the powder and your PRB?? If not, try that,also.

When you get to your final practice session, try the gun for 3 shot groups standing, and standing using some kind of rest- a tree, pole, post, car roof, etc. The furthest distance you can put a RB within 6 inches of your point of aim is as far as you want to try a shot. Better, cut the distance you can do this standing off-hand, in half and limit off-hand shots to the shorter range. Take the distance you can do this using a standing "rest" and cut that down by 1/3. This will give you some allowance for " buck fever", anxiety, and all the other things that make shooters miss when shooting at live game. Don't expect to shoot 12 inch groups off-hand at 100 yards this season- not with a still new gun and without a load yet you know is going to deliver the goods. Perhaps next year, if you do lots of practicing in the off-season.

After all the years of shooting I have done, I will not shoot off-hand at a deer at more than 35 yards, nor at a deer using a standing rest at more than 75 yards. I can hit them further, and do hit targets at twice those distances. But, I follow these rules so I don't chance wounding an animal if anything should go wrong. My longest shot at a deer with a rest has been about 40 yards. My longest off-hand shot has been much less than that. The thick river bottom brush country I hunt just won't allow you to see a deer much beyond 50 yards- in the old days when my ears still worked well, I could hear them before I could see them--- much less get a shot out to 50 yards.

 

[MikeChapin]

...
Questions:

- What do you guys use for cleaning patches at the range? The cleaning patches I'm using were a bit expensive (in my opinion) and I went through a ton of them.
- I've sighted in my GPR for the purpose of deer hunting. I've always use Pyrodex and this is my first time using black powder. In Pyrodex, I've always used 90 grains of FFg. Will the 70 grain load of Goex FFFg produce good stopping power on deer out to 100 yards? If not, should I be working on a hotter load?

...

Any materiel that will hold moisture will work for a cleaning patch. Hit the local fabric store for remnants. Flannel or anything with a high percentage of cotton. Also some thrift stores sell bundles of worn out t-shirts for cleaning rags very cheap.

Seventy grains should be plenty in a .50. I have used that load for deer for many years. A long time ago circumstances forced me to take a shot at 70 yards on a large mulie doe that was quartered towards me. The ball broke her shoulder blade, broke a rib, passed through the lungs, clipped the top of the liver, broke the bottom rib on the off side and lodged under the skin on the off side. That load at 100 yards would still drop the doe from the same angle but may not have broken the bottom rib.

 

[boar]

The best and cheapest cleaning patches I had found are my Wifes old flannel nightgowns after she discards them, way better then tee shirts. She likes the long ones. I just tear in strips and roll them up and put in bag or tie on the strap. Dilly

 

[Otter]

- What do you guys use for cleaning patches at the range? The cleaning patches I'm using were a bit expensive (in my opinion) and I went through a ton of them.
- I've sighted in my GPR for the purpose of deer hunting. I've always use Pyrodex and this is my first time using black powder. In Pyrodex, I've always used 90 grains of FFg. Will the 70 grain load of Goex FFFg produce good stopping power on deer out to 100 yards? If not, should I be working on a hotter load?

--Nodakhorseman

I also use strips or squares cut from my wife's discarded flannel nightgowns for most "general" cleaning. When I really want to get things cleaned as best I can, I use 2 x 2 inch gauze pads purchased from a medical supply company that almost always has some that are non-sterile because of exposure to moisture or such. The gauze pads really get into the rifling and grab any remaining bits of gunk and grit.

As far as your load - I use 75 gr Goex 3f and a PRB in my .54 GPR and it is more than sufficient.

 

[nodakhorseman]

What do the patches tell you? Are you even looking at them? I am talking about the patches that wrap the ball, and leave the muzzle. You have to pick those up and look at them- each of them, to find out what the gun is doing with that new load. The Targets are fine, but they also are biased regarding your shooting skills on that particular day.

I must admit that I haven't even looked at one patch. I have a general idea of what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure what to do if I see something bad/wrong. If I understand it correctly, the patch shouldn't be torn or burnt. In a perfect world, what should it look like?

 

[nodakhorseman]

As to the sulfur, I answered this yesterday. Take a small canteen, or container of water with you to the range. Take some liquid dish soap. At the range, when you finish shooting, put some liquid soap on a cleaning patch-- I buy flannel cotton patches by the 1,000 that are 3 inch square, and used them from both smoothbores, and my .50 cal. rifle-- and plug the hole under the nipple with another cleaning patch. just stuff it in there. Now pour some water- as little as 1/4 cup of water will do-- down the barrel, and run the cleaning patch with soap down and SLOWLY pump the patch up and down. Now, pull the rod, jag, and patch out of the barrel, and put your thumb over the muzzle of the barrel. Shake the gun up and down. Then, pour the water and soap out of the barrel from the muzzle. It will be full of black gunk, but also will have the majority of that sulfur. Leave it at the range. I then like to wipe the bore down with another patch- not to really dry it complete, but simply to remove any residue that is loose, and get it out of the barrel. Leave the dirty patches in the garbage or burn barrel at the range. I leave the plug in the bolster, and just transport the gun home, where I can finish the cleaning process more completely. With percussion guns, I like to remove the barrel from the stock, and put it in a bucket of water, before pumping water in and out of the flash channel with a wet cleaning patch, and soap in the water. The high pressure jet of water blasts loose any residue in the flash channel, or powder chamber( if you have one) and leaves them very clean. Do expect to have to empty that bucket of water at least once, and replace it with clean water to rinse. Rinse in tepid water to cool the barrel to air temperature before actually drying the bore.

Are you using an OP wad, or filler as a firewall between the powder and your PRB?? If not, try that,also.

Good advice on the field cleaning--I'll give that a try next time out. Or, just use a 5-gallon bucket in my garage. :grin:

Yes, I am using an overpowder card (.125"). This was recommended to me a while back to help with more consistent patterning.

In regard to the shooting tip, much appreciated. I'm no rookie to harvesting deer--only a rookie to breaking in a gun. All my other muzzleloaders shot great out of the box (side locks)--so this is new to me. But, very rewarding!

 

[nodakhorseman]

As far as your load - I use 75 gr Goex 3f and a PRB in my .54 GPR and it is more than sufficient.

Thanks Otter! I'll probably add 5 grains to my load. Much appreciated! :thumbsup:

 

[nodakhorseman]

I also had a few firsts yesterday. I ran down an overpowder card a couple of times without the powder and also ran a patch and ball down w/out powder once. Humbling...

I've heard of civil war soldiers repeatedly loading charge on top of charge in their guns while in the heat of battle. I have a better understanding of what they were up against--I was simply standing at a shooting bench and screwed up 3 times in 30 or so shots. Funny...

 

[BrownBear]

I'm curious what will happen if you strip away all the changes except the thicker patch. You made lots of changes all at once, but that thin patch bothered me more than anything else.

The only reason for suggesting the test is to see if an even thicker patch with no other changes would improve things further. In my experience the tighter you can get a patch the better most guns shoot and the fewer wierd behaviours you see.

 

[nodakhorseman]

I agree, I made a lot of changes at once. I thought the bore cleaning compound would be a good idea no matter what. After several late nights reading on this site, I've grown to think that true black powder is a good idea for a rifle, where consistency is key. For my ML shotgun, I'll continue to use 777 for the simple reason that it gets a ton of use and I have found that I don't need to clean it each and every day.

The load I'm using right now appears to be working great. Thanks for the help!

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Sounds like you are getting there. Might try adjusting the powder up 5-15 grains. Keep an eye on your patches for each increase.

As for cleaning patches I buy cotton flannel and a material cutter then cut it into whatever size I want. Cheap and made to order! :wink:

 

[renovato]

It sounds like you've pretty much got it dialed in. When you have some time, you might work on load development. Most guns have a sweet spot as far as the load goes and the accuracy is noticeably better there. I'd start working up in 5 grain increments and see if you don't find a load that shoots even tighter. Most of my guns seem to have 2 sweet spots about 20-25 grains apart.

Also, when you have time, you might tinker with different lubes. Sometimes you stumble across a patch/lube/charge combo that is really a tackdriver.

If you're having problems with consistency, it might be your compression when you load. Instead of tamping, I "press" the load tight. It's easier to create the same pressure each time you load. This tightens groups quite a bit, for me at least.

 

[chapmans]

I use super flannel for cleaning patches it costs about $3 a yard at WW, I use one of those fabric cutters that looks like a pizza cutter, you can cut 3 or 4 thicknesses at once, just cut into strips then cut the strips into patches, You can cut a whole bunch of patches in one session!
Longball 58

 

[roundball]

My wife and I produce more flannel PJ & nightgown material plus T-shirt material for patches than I can keep up with...I don't normally wipe between shots all that much and I'm accumulating a lot of ziploc bags of patches stacked up in the garage.

Maybe I should change my tactics...start wiping between shots AND blowing down the barrel...AFTERWARDS :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

There will be fraying about the edges, from when the fabric hits the air violently at the muzzle. That is normal. But the kind of burning and tearing we are looking for extends from the edge of the patch into the ring left when the patch seals the ball from the lands and grooves. That should be a brown colored ring only about 1/16" wide, but a complete circle. The center of the patch should be light yellow to brown, depending on the amount of lube, and kind of lube you are using in the patch.

The patch should be whole, except for the fraying at the edges. There should be no rectangular cuts where a groove appears on the patch, or a tearing or burning away of the patch on any side.

If you get Dutch Shoultz's materials, he includes photocopies of pictures that clearly illustrate good and bad patches. RoundBall has posted some Excellent Photos, here, In Color of patches shot from his gun on a typical Saturday Morning practice session. He uses pre-lubed patches from OxYoke, so the patch lube leaves the patch yellow in color, except at the center where the patch sometimes appears almost white.The lube migrates to the edges as the result of centrifugal force applied to the patch as the PRB spins down the bore. Heat from the powder gases also tends to melt the lube at the rearmost point of the RB, which just happens to be the center of the patch, too! Melted lube migrates to the sides faster, of course. He could use those patches again, but he would want to add more lube to each of them before using them a second time. :thumbsup:

 

[richl]

great question about what patches to use.. I'm a rookie using 12 gauge patches to clean with between shots. I use a lot of them.
O.K. to use, or not a good idea?
Thanks,
Rich

 

[Zonie]

richl
I can only tell you what happened to me when I used 12 guage patches to clean my .50 and .54 cal rifles.

I was using them with the typical brass cleaning jag and they had a bad habit of bunching up above the jag when I tried to withdraw the jag/cleaning rod.

This caused the jag/rod to jam in place and the only way I found to withdraw it was to push it back down a bit and then try again.
Sometimes it would take several attempts to get the rod back out.

After this I switched to the .45 Pistol cleaning patches and since doing this I've never had another problem with the rod getting stuck in the bore.
-------
As for technique in wiping the bore between shots I've seen folks run their rods rapidly up and down the bore several times and this, in my opinion is wrong. Using this method the fouling often doesn't soften until the rod is being shoved back down the bore and this tends to cause the fouling to get shoved down the barrel and into the breech area.

I suggest that a better way is to use a rather damp patch on the jag and run it all the way down the barrel to the breech. Let it sit there for at least 5 seconds and then pull it back out of the bore using a moderate speed.
Change to a clean patch and run it down the bore once and then back out. The gun is ready to load the next shot.

The reason for the 5+ second wait is that on the way down the patch wets the fouling's surface. The 5+ seconds allows the fouling to soften. Then removing the jag/patch will wipe off about 90 percent of the fouling. The patch will be really dirty when it comes out.
The second dry patch is just to dry the remaining moisture in the bore although it will be moderately dirty when it comes back out.

 

[paulvallandigham]

As long as the cleaning jag is made so that the first ring is .030" smaller than your land diameter, the second .010" smaller than the first, and third .010" smaller than the second, it should handle those large patches down to a .50 caliber rifle. I don't have the problem Jim( zonie) is describing and use the 3 inch square, 12 ga. patches for cleaning my .50 all the time. But, again, I Have a Cleaning jag! The Loading jag on my gun's ramrod WILL lock up if I try to use it with the big patches. But that jag is much closer in size to my bore diameter, and the rings are not stepped down. I bought 2 1/4" diameter cotton cleaning patches to use in the .50 before I had my range rod, and cleaning jag, because they fit a brass " tin " I had from Tedd Cash Products, perfectly, and they didn't hang up in the barrel of my .50 if I used the loading jag for both purposes-loading and cleaning.