US wolves taken off endangered list, clearing way for hunting

[bramble]

Just a couple of thoughts as the discussion progresses.

don't read too much into a member not responding in what we consider a timely manner. Some of us have more time to be on-line than others.

In general (I can't address the wolf issue specifically, 'cause in NC I'm a little removed from first hand experience) I see myself as a predator, and a fairly effective one at that. I take on the label of sportsman as a social veneer that results in my making choices that take into consideration issues beyond me & mine (like observing bag limits & seasons so there is enough game to go around). I use the term veneer, because I realize that if it came down to feeding my family, such concerns would suddenly become a much lower priority, (with the probable exception of a taboo on overkill/waste).

This could be an interesting discussion.

Humbly, :bow:
your bloodthirsty predator, barely fit for such civilized company as yours

bramble

 

[paulvallandigham]

IN the early Winter months, the mother wolves are teaching their sons and daughters, only a little smaller in size than she is, HOW TO KILL. It is commone for them to kill just for the practice, and leave the carcasses. They may or may not come back to feed on some of the meat, depending on how much other food they come across. Wolf packs generally consist of siblings, and even in their prime, they are not 100% successful in trapping and killing game. There are lots of hungry nights. As they age, they become acceptable to disease, infections from wound incurred during the hunt, or in fights with dominant males, starvation, when they are so crippled they no longer can run fast enough to catch anything, and from predation from members of their own pack, who will sometimes kill a wounded or injured pack member, and even feed on him if they are hungry. the pack cannot support wounded and crippled members who are no longer able to contribute to the pack's work. If the dog does not leave the pack quickly, to die alone, he will be killed if he tries to feed on the next kill. Wolves can and do cover vasts amounts of territory looking for prey. When we find a site where wolves have killed many deer we find it upsetting, particularly when there is no evidence that the wolves are feeding on the carcasses. However, the fact that they did not feed on the kills is an indication that the deer herd in the area is in good shape. Nature does not waste much of anything. The carcasses will be food for vultures, hawks, and golden eagles, in the west, as well as wolverine, fox, and many rodents who will consume both the flesh, and then the bones. The calcium excreted by the mice will fertilize the ground around the kill site for years to come, growing tall grasses, and sweetening the soils for tree growth. Wolves do not just prey on the weak, the young, and the helpless. But there is a purpose in everything they do. Wild animals rarely play without reason. The law of Conservation of Energy guides everything animals do.

 

[RC]

paul, very well said as usual!now i'm jes tryin to figure out if yer a hunter,a sportsman or a lawyer...cause ya said what needed sayin..but didn't commit ta either side. bless you sir! :winking: RC

 

[roundball]

don't read too much into a member not responding in what we consider a timely manner. Some of us have more time to be on-line than others.

There's always that possibility but I doubt that's the case here...there is a type of individual who intentionally posts provactive comments to incite dissention...they're sometimes called trolls...a normal person would have posted a question as a friendly thought provoking one like:
"Hey gang...here's a question...is there a difference between a hunter and a sportsman, and if so how do we define the two?

 

[Vaino]

When this "discussion" deteriorated into an inane mishmash, I opted out. After my second post redwing labeled me "you Eastern Liberal" and Plains99 referred to opinions opposite his as an "ultimate liberal guilt trip". I, like a lot of people, enjoy "heated" discussions but won't attack people and/or differing viewpoints in a derogatory and political manner. By the way...redwing should go back to school and study geography seeing Wisconsin is in the midwest. There have been some "sane" views on wolves, but I'm afraid these were not proferred by the "wolf hating alarmists " and some of their posts exhibit a very short sighted solution. Wisconsin has a large, flourishing wolf population and due to our "liberal" tendencies, we consider these many wolf packs as an asset and not a liability.....Fred

 

[PitchyPine]

don't read too much into a member not responding in what we consider a timely manner. Some of us have more time to be on-line than others.

There's always that possibility but I doubt that's the case here...there is a type of individual who intentionally posts provactive comments to incite dissention...they're sometimes called trolls...a normal person would have posted a question as a friendly thought provoking one like:
"Hey gang...here's a question...is there a difference between a hunter and a sportsman, and if so how do we define the two?

Bramble, were you replying to me?
I didn`t think i said anything wrong :surrender:

 

[roundball]

When this "discussion" deteriorated into an inane mishmash, I opted out. After my second post redwing labeled me "you Eastern Liberal" and Plains99 referred to opinions opposite his as an "ultimate liberal guilt trip". I, like a lot of people, enjoy "heated" discussions but won't attack people and/or differing viewpoints in a derogatory and political manner. By the way...redwing should go back to school and study geography seeing Wisconsin is in the midwest. There have been some "sane" views on wolves, but I'm afraid these were not proferred by the "wolf hating alarmists " and some of their posts exhibit a very short sighted solution. Wisconsin has a large, flourishing wolf population and due to our "liberal" tendencies, we consider these many wolf packs as an asset and not a liability.....Fred

OK, fair enough...everybody can reset to zero and start again:

Hunter?

Sportsman?

 

[Bountyhunter]

Naw, Lenn, you're alright.

This is sure an interesting conversation. I'm sure that if some of the folks could see what a wolf or coyote does to a calf, or lamb, or a birthing mother, that they would take a different view on the canine predator. The loss to coyotes and mountain lions in this area are significant to stock raisers.

Well, I'll slip back in and read where this goes later, my crew is building a large irrigation canal and I'm gonna go out and watch them. The rancher told me that there are a couple mountain lions there on the mesa, and I intend to kill both of them if I can spot them.

As far as my hunting is concerned, I worked as a state Wildlife Damage Control officer for years. I dont want to kill every predator, just those that I see.

 

[BRUN]

In Idaho, where anti-wolf sentiments run high, Governor Butch Otter has called for the killing of 550 wolves, or 85 percent of the state's wolf population. In the federally approved plan submitted by state game managers, Idaho would manage at least 150 wolves.

I see nothing wrong with hunting wolves but killing 550 seems a little excessive.Ill probably get nailed for that. :grin:

 

[PitchyPine]

Ya i think he just replied by clicking my post because it was the last one before his.
I know there used to be lots of coyotes around here until the wolves moved in now ya never see one.
Couple of the cattle owners have been losing calfs to them also. Last year while sitting in my stand bow hunting one came across the field about 100 yards from me with deer ribs in his mouth that he got down by the barn where i dumped them. I`m not particularly against the wolf but when they right along with wild deer chasing dogs are killing deer left and right something needs to be done.

 

[barebackjack]

Coyotes die on sight up here, year round. If you can get a bitch in spring even better. And yet, they still multiply and spread.

I know what coyotes do to livestock, cant imagine what a wolf that weighs 60 pounds more would do.

We need to face it, there are some animals that just DONT co-habitat with humans. Man has replaced the "apex" predators of past. Grizz, wolves, big cats, just dont go together with man very well. I know I know, attacks and confrontations are rare, but they DO happen. And just try raising livestock with large predators.

Shoot, shovel, shut-up. The three S's of wolf hunting in the lower 48, but maybe not for long.

 

[Bountyhunter]

In this neck of the woods, the coyote has no closed season. It is the only legal reason that you can shoot from a vehicle window, and a coyote is the only legal reason that you may shoot across a road. Coyotes may be shot on any property without the permission of the owner. Brushpuppies are a popular target in the other game offseasons. Up until I was in highschool the county paid a $2 bounty on coyote scalps.

"They" have been attempting to introduce the mexican wolf into southwestern New Mexico. Are you part of that effort, Sean? Anyway, the boys over there have been bustin caps in their butts about as fast as they can haul them in. There has been a big stink between the ranchers and whoever it is that is hauling them in there. Can you tell us more about that, Sean?

 

[hornbuilder]

ok then .... yes some of us don't have all the time they want to surf the net and therefore don't always respond in a timely manner ( sorry )
a SPORTSMEN is a person who knows and respects the animals hunted, follows the laws, and behaves in a way that will satisfy what society expects of him or her as a hunter ......
this definition recognized that we must be responsive to what the rest of the people think about hunting and hunters. Hunting is a primal activity. It is an activity that we find rewarding and re_creating. We must remember,however that in our modern world each generation is more removed from nature . Each generation has fewer personal experiences with, and an understanding of , nature. If hunting is going to be acceptable in a changing society,we must address change and our ownevolutionas hunters
What critics of hunting find objectionable are:
#1 unethical hunter behavior
#2 killing only for trophy
#3 killing for fun
some of the statements made in this discussion are a little askew....we need to keep in mind that ( WE ) are predators ! of our own and the lower aspects of nature as well.....
each and every creature on this planet deserves our respect, we all know that this isn't happening , at any level ..
Each creature on this planet has a place and a purpose, even when we may not understand it, but just know that its there...
the game that this wolf eats or kills belongs to him ....not us .....but how many of you have heard the statement made ( I GOT MY BUCK ) ??
MINE: none of us own wildlife,
we need to keep also in our mind that hunters in this country consist of about 10% of the population, another 10% are totally against hunting , which leaves 80% of the population on the fence, which sideof the fence they fall towards is up to us ......
i hope that this clears up any misconseptions about the statements i made and the reason ..

as before ~~~ nuff said :surrender:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well I am a hunter, sportsman, lawyer, and a teacher and writer. Also a musician, tracker, and trick shot. I have been known to throw a mean ax, and knife when I have practiced some. Shhhh! Don't tell the lawyers about all this extra stuff I do. You might get me thrown out of that union.

Seriously, Many years ago, a friend of mine who lives in British Columbia first reported see a large number or deer that were killed by wolves behind his farm, when the snows were so deep the deer yarded up. The wolves came over the top and killed all the deer but didn't eat any of them. He was furious. I started doing some reading, and asking questions of experts on canine behavior, and the one guy only wanted to know what month or time of year did this occur. Since the letter was written to me between Thanks giving and Christmas, I told him November or December. He explained how the alpha females take the Spring litter of pups and teach them how to negotiate the deep snows, and how to kill. He also told me how the mother will not allow the pups to feed on their kill- they were there to learn How to Kill, and not to eat.

I found that fascinating, but varified it with other sources. My expert then reminded me that wolves cover miles of territory daily in search of food, and they are not going to starve, or eat themselves out of food. He said if my friend saw a kill like I described, then there were plenty of other deer out there to feed the wolves, and reproduce for the next year.

I thought it would be worthwhile to share that information with everyone, so those who were still pasionate about killing wolves would better understand the wolves' roles in the greater system. I also wanted those who think wolves are nice little puppies to understand that these observations are not made up, that wolves have to be trained to be efficient killers for the benefit of the entire pack, and that occasionally, they need to be killed to reduce stock depravations. As usual, most folks don't excited about something until its their ox being gored. I am not going to go out an kill wolves just for the fun of it, but on the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of tracking down wolves that are killing livestock and killing them. Same with coyotes, and other predators.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Well, Larry, that all may be fine in Pennsylvania, but it doesnt necessarily work that way on this side of the Big Muddy. We all consider ourselves hunters, and along with that goes hunting ethics. Those who do not abide by good ethics are known as poachers and are but one step removed from the coyote.

Any time that I have had to call johnny law to arrest someone for trespassing on my ranch, the trespasser have been some card carrying member of some "Sportsmans Club".

Its kinda like when some dude comes into my office and applies for a job and immediately makes noise about being a born again christian, I know that he is most likely a drunk (AA) or a felon with prison time. Same way when someone tells me that he is a sportsman, I immediately put up my guard and look'im over real good to see what it is that he is attempting to conceal. In that case, never doubt your intuition.

Paul, You raise a very good and valid point. I worked for years for Kansas as a Wildlife Damage Control officer, mostly in the west side. Most of my calls were on coyote problems with sheep or calves. Once in a while we dealt with a cat, but mostly coyotes, or dogs. The point being, that when there is a problem that suddenly crops up, most of the time it is a single animal which is causing the trouble. I would scout the area that was having the problems and then lay traps, and if they were placed correctly, I usually got the offender, complete with either wool in his teeth, or remnants of baby calf in his stomach. Coyotes will usually eat something from what they kill. Farm dogs or ferral dogs will kill for sport. Once I got the offender, the problem would usually cease. If not, then we would call and kill every canine that we could find in that immediate area. That would bring a stop to it. In 1993, we took over 700 coyotes off of one ranch by Liberal, Kansas in 60 days. They were a little thick that year. That ranch was maybe 2 miles by 3 miles, a small ranch in that area. I had 4 guys using steel traps, snares, calling, and I was using cyanide guns. Yes, I have a federal license to use them.

The thing that started that whole hunt was the ranchers old horse died. The horse weighed about 1200 pounds. He died about 4PM, and when the rancher went down at 8 the next morning with the tractor to dig a hole to bury him, the horse was gone, he had been completely eaten in like 8 hours. Run the math on that.

Bill

 

[bramble]

PitchyPine,
My apologies. I did just click on the last entry. My response was a general one, noting that silence or lack of follow up on an issue(in this case hornbuilder) may simply mean that the honorable member had not had the chance to respond because his time on line is limited by the real world.
:surrender:
bramble

 

[roundball]

Gosh, wish you had just said all that to begin with...most people here probably agree with most of it...I noticed a couple things that could be viewed a little differently and they are:

1) I think your reference to the phrase "I got my buck" implying some sort of unhealthy attitude towards "ownership of game" is a misunderstanding on your part. I've participated in that all my life and it's nothing more than a casual exchange between hunters, who have bought and paid for their license and tags giving them the privilege of taking "x" number of bucks, does, whatever...and the phrase simply conveys the status of their hunting..."Yes, I filled my buck tag last week", or "I got my buck last week", or my brother sends me an email asking how my season went and I say "I got all my Bucks or I got all my Does", etc...all that means is that I filled all my tags, and it has nothing at all to do with any sense of "ownership of game"...so I'm glad you posted that mis-conception so it could be clarified.

2) The other slightly different view is that I don't think you living in PA, or me living in NC, can comprehend and really "feel" what citizen's of our country feel who live & make their livelihoods in other areas of our country where wolves have become an ever increasing problem over the past 2 decades.

It has been written about with ever increasing frequency in a number of national publications and my view is until we walk in the shoes of those who live with things significantly different from what we experience, we really cannot comprehend it, are really ignorant of their reality, and unqualified to pass judgement on their attitudes towards things.

For example, I have a similar issue with snakes...living many years in North and South Carolina, diamond back rattlesnakes and timber rattlers are not something we just read about in readers digest...they are real and they will kill you. After a couple close calls you get an attitude about snakes...you kill them on the spot.

Unless it's immediately obvious that it's a harmless 5 foot coach whip (black snake) slithering away, if I see a snake that even hints of looking like a pit viper I kill it right there, period...during the off sesason I don't go in the woods without my S&W .45cal Long Colt filled with big CCI shot cartridges.

The point of this snake example is like the wolves...that I live down here with them, but I doubt you ever have to be concerned about your life when you decide to sit down while walking in the woods, or look on the other side of a log before you sit down on it...you'd have to walk in my shoes, for years, to really comprehend the snake reality.

:v

 

[wolfram]

What critics of hunting find objectionable are:
#1 unethical hunter behavior
#2 killing only for trophy
#3 killing for fun

we need to keep also in our mind that hunters in this country consist of about 10% of the population, another 10% are totally against hunting , which leaves 80% of the population on the fence, which sideof the fence they fall towards is up to us ......

A much better post :thumbsup: Why didn't you just say that to begin with? I actually think more people see it your way than you think.

I think that you got the main reasons what reasonable nonhunters (minus the ones who say "hunting is wrong" while they take a bite out of a beef burrito) don't like about hunters down pretty good.

 

[RC]

paul, I was jes joshin with ya, but figure ya knew that..anyways,guess in natures way,the teaching how to kill and not eat any makes sense,if the pups ate they'd probably loose the desire to continue their education,it still would bother me! I do have trouble believing, because the wolves killed a bunch of deer that there's enough deer left out there..seems a wolf would take advantage of deer in deep snow reguardless how high or low the population was..I still believe the opportunity to hunt wolves is a great idea, for hunters,the state,for ranchers,farmers etc. I would be against cleaning them out,unless it was needed in that area..just my thoughts ,but being able to go on a wolf hunt I think would be extremely exciting,whether it resulted in a kill or not, they are an awesome smart predator,and if the population could withstand the hunt, I'm in favor..thank you again paul for your knowledge and research! I sure do appreciate your and the others thoughts, knowledge, and opinions.it's what makes the world go round! RC :hatsoff:

 

[howdydoit]

well I ate dog and cat in 3rd world countries and can say they both make a fine meal. Id take them over a bologna samach any day. :blah:

ahhh looks like im a little late here but ill leave it for the reading.