What do you see as the future for Traditional Muzzleloading

[tg]

"I don't care if you shoot inlines, if you are in the field legally, then I support ya."

This type of acceptance of the modern ML's in ML seasons because they are leagal,even though ignoring the spirit of the ML hunt will go a long ways toward helping the numbers of traditional ML hunters dwindle, one should accept the fact that they are leagal but also know that they slipped in thru a loophole and belong in regular rifle season, if the next generation of ML hunters are not made aware of the real story here there may be few go the traditional way, those who are armed with all the facts can at least make an informed choice.

 

[Rikeman]

I used to hunt years ago in Oregon with a 3030 lever action. I just ended up getting bored with hunting.

I recieved my first .54 hawken last Christmas. I have totally enjoyed shooting this gun more than any of my center fire rifles. My 3 boys are also hooked. This year I am using it to hunt during center fire season for black tail deer. I have been out several times. The last time I went out, we get out in the field and my buddy figures out that he doesnt have his tag with him so he can't hunt. He offers to let me use his 7mm with a scope. When I turn him down, he was totally shocked saying there was no way I was going to hit anything with my rifle. When I plugged a 5 gal bucket at 100 yards off hand, he was blown away and is now going out to get one for himself.

So in a long answer we can all progress the future of our sport one convert at a time!

 

[mykeal]

"I don't care if you shoot inlines, if you are in the field legally, then I support ya."

This type of acceptance of the modern ML's in ML seasons because they are leagal,even though ignoring the spirit of the ML hunt will go a long ways toward helping the numbers of traditional ML hunters dwindle,

How will accepting modern ML's in ML season cause the number of traditional ML hunters to decrease?
Are you afraid that modern ML hunters will enjoy the sport too much and thus won't want to try traditional ML guns?

Help me understand the logic of that statement.

 

[Freedom]

I think the future has a good outlook.

When I meet people in the woods and show them my Flintlock, most of them are truly amazed."you can just pick up a rock and it will fire your gun" they say.
I always offer it to them..."here you want to try it?" Most people appear to be bored with the rifle they carry and the modern inline just looks like another rifle. But the old flinter is truly a work of art. It doesn't mean they all run out and buy a flinter but it is obvious from the smileson there faces that shooting the BP was one of the Highlights of there day and I'm sure they will tell many about the day they shot a "Real Gun"

 

[Zonie]

mykeal
This post isn't aimed at you or your thoughts but it is about the same subject.

I can't help but feel that many of the newcomers to muzzleloading who use those new things to hunt with may stick with them if they are just in it for a second season to get more venison.

Others, who are really out there to enjoy the hunting experience will, as some of our members have said, get bored with using what amounts to a single shot modern rifle which makes hunting little more than target shooting in the woods.

Those folks will (hopefully) start looking at the traditional guns as something that puts the "sport" and satisfaction back into hunting.

Yes, these will be in the minority but then we who love the traditional guns will always be a minority among shooters.
The important thing though is it is these people who will keep the tradition alive.

 

[XXX]

"I don't care if you shoot inlines, if you are in the field legally, then I support ya."

This type of acceptance of the modern ML's in ML seasons because they are leagal,even though ignoring the spirit of the ML hunt will go a long ways toward helping the numbers of traditional ML hunters dwindle,

How will accepting modern ML's in ML season cause the number of traditional ML hunters to decrease?
Are you afraid that modern ML hunters will enjoy the sport too much and thus won't want to try traditional ML guns?

Help me understand the logic of that statement.

Hi Myk,

I agree with TG. First of all, the decline in trad ML sales directly corresponds to the emergence and rise to prominence of the inline rifle. Same phenonmenon as the arrival of the compound nearly led to the extinction of the stickbow. I'm not sure why that cause and effect would be a mystery. But there are other ways to consider it. What would happen for instance if game agencies decided that there would no longer be different weapons seasons and that anything from stickbows to semi-auto rifles would be legal at the same time in one single 30 day season. In other words, 30 days, any legal weapon goes, everyone wears orange. I suspect that what would happen in such an extreme example would be that 90% of hunters would be using the most modern, scoped, semi-auto center fire that they could find. legions of bowhunters, stick and compound, would probably quit hunting in disgust since it is difficult to maintain a good stand or stillhunt your way within 20 yards while deer drives are going on. The culture of Centerfire hunting is completely different, at least in my experience. It is a world of the more people in the woods the better, so you can "keep 'em moving" and shots at alerted and in some cases spooked deer. Firepower rules centerfire seasons and people showing up at deer camp with archery equipment or muzzleloaders are thought to be stupid. Primitive type seasons in general and archery in particular have a different character and the goal is to hunt game by getting within range undetected while the game is undisturbed. It is this fundamental difference in mindset and methodology that led to archery seasons and primitive weapons seasons being set aside seperately in the first place. I know such a hypothetical "anything goes" season is far fetched, but the example does 2 things for us. it undermines the concept of " any legal weapon is acceptable" as a sporting ethic and I hope explains to you why it is not so much a matter of the modernist enjoying themselves too much as it is a case of us not being able to enjoy our methods at all.

 

[rich pierce]

That was an intelligent post. Unfortunately, the future of traditional muzzleloading hunting is dim and getting dimmer. It is not just the newbies getting into the sport that we are losing. I have a friend who had a "real" Hawken in the 1970's- complete with Bill Large barrel- and now hunts with an inline. He had to sell the Hawken when he got divorced, then decided he wanted another shot at deer, and could get an inline for about what a good barrel costs nowadays. He can get everything he needs for this gun at Cabelas or Bass Pro Shops. No need to find a little ML shop somewhere. He barely has time to hunt and doesn't want to mess around. So it's pellets, sabots, and inline with a scope. For him, the day in the woods, and being able to shoot that thang like a cartridge gun- no need to work up a load, is a plus for him. There's no more Dan'l Boone on TV, folks.

 

[shootemup]

One thing I've noticed, almost without fail, is that people are intrigued by my flintlocks and are anxious to shoot them if given the opportunity.

They don't neccessarily run out and buy one, but they do enjoy them. For this reason, I think we need to be friendly to the folks we meet that don't know about traditional muzzleloading. A few of them will join us.

Overall, I don't think traditional muzzleloading will ever die out completely. I do think the numbers of traditional muzzleloaders may rise and fall over time.

Spot

 

[Claude Mathis]

That was an intelligent post.

XXX has an article in our resources section that is worth reading.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/225581/

 

[tg]

"Help me understand the logic of that statement."

XXX pretty well summed it up, people cannot make an inteligent informed choice unless they have the all the facts, there may be some new hunters out there who might just try the traditional guns first thing off if they knew the history of the ML hunting seasons over the last 30 years, there are some people now who don't really know or accept the fact that they are useing modern gear, their choices may have been different if they had been shown that there are two completely different worlds of hunting we are talking about.

 

[Pigman]

"There's no more Dan'l Boone on TV, folks."

Look on the WHT network at 5 PM weekdays

Direct tv channel 367

You may find they are a little sillier than you remember.

Thanks,
Mark C. Foster

 

[FV Rago]

TG,

Guess that's the diff. between us. I don't need a muzzleloading or primitive weapons season to take my smokepole to the field. That is all I carry during hunting season, be it primitive weapons or regular rifle season.

My question for others, is your smokepole inferior, if not, why have a sep. season. It's like this crazy notion of having a primitive bow season vs a reg. bow season.

You use what you use.

You can't stop technology, not going to happen. Most inline smokepole shooters only do it because it extends their season a week or two. Then they stick their rifles back in the closet till next year.

I don't hunt with a smokepole for the extra season, I don't do it to be cool, I do it because it's who I am and what I enjoy.

The spirit of the muzzleloading hunt, has nothing to do with the season, really has nothing to do with the gun, it has to do with you, the person hunting.

I wrote up a couple articles years ago when the crossbows starting getting in the bow season. I stated distance facts, kills vs wounding animals. I got into it very heavily both in Maryland and Georgia.

Then I realized, who was I, to impose my hunting views on others. I felt that I was damaging the "not the sport, because hunting is not a sport" but rather hurting the existance of hunting seasons, by adding additonal contempt to hunting seasons. I got off my podem at that point.

Big business, retail drives what hunters purchase and take to the field. Don't blame me, blame Bass Pro, Cabelas, and the host of retailers that push inlines and crossbows. They also fund the changing of the laws.

I'm just a guy in buckskins carrying an old 45cal Lancaster rifle in the woods for deer and hogs, during any season.

 

[Pork Chop]

TG,

Guess that's the diff. between us. I don't need a muzzleloading or primitive weapons season to take my smokepole to the field. That is all I carry during hunting season, be it primitive weapons or regular rifle season.

My question for others, is your smokepole inferior, if not, why have a sep. season. It's like this crazy notion of having a primitive bow season vs a reg. bow season.

You use what you use.

You can't stop technology, not going to happen. Most inline smokepole shooters only do it because it extends their season a week or two. Then they stick their rifles back in the closet till next year.

I don't hunt with a smokepole for the extra season, I don't do it to be cool, I do it because it's who I am and what I enjoy.

The spirit of the muzzleloading hunt, has nothing to do with the season, really has nothing to do with the gun, it has to do with you, the person hunting.

I wrote up a couple articles years ago when the crossbows starting getting in the bow season. I stated distance facts, kills vs wounding animals. I got into it very heavily both in Maryland and Georgia.

Then I realized, who was I, to impose my hunting views on others. I felt that I was damaging the "not the sport, because hunting is not a sport" but rather hurting the existance of hunting seasons, by adding additonal contempt to hunting seasons. I got off my podem at that point.

Big business, retail drives what hunters purchase and take to the field. Don't blame me, blame Bass Pro, Cabelas, and the host of retailers that push inlines and crossbows. They also fund the changing of the laws.

I'm just a guy in buckskins carrying an old 45cal Lancaster rifle in the woods for deer and hogs, during any season.

:applause:

 

[Greenmtnboy]

TG,

Guess that's the diff. between us. I don't need a muzzleloading or primitive weapons season to take my smokepole to the field. That is all I carry during hunting season, be it primitive weapons or regular rifle season.

My question for others, is your smokepole inferior, if not, why have a sep. season. It's like this crazy notion of having a primitive bow season vs a reg. bow season.

You use what you use.

You can't stop technology, not going to happen. Most inline smokepole shooters only do it because it extends their season a week or two. Then they stick their rifles back in the closet till next year.

I don't hunt with a smokepole for the extra season, I don't do it to be cool, I do it because it's who I am and what I enjoy.

The spirit of the muzzleloading hunt, has nothing to do with the season, really has nothing to do with the gun, it has to do with you, the person hunting.

I wrote up a couple articles years ago when the crossbows starting getting in the bow season. I stated distance facts, kills vs wounding animals. I got into it very heavily both in Maryland and Georgia.

Then I realized, who was I, to impose my hunting views on others. I felt that I was damaging the "not the sport, because hunting is not a sport" but rather hurting the existance of hunting seasons, by adding additonal contempt to hunting seasons. I got off my podem at that point.

Big business, retail drives what hunters purchase and take to the field. Don't blame me, blame Bass Pro, Cabelas, and the host of retailers that push inlines and crossbows. They also fund the changing of the laws.

I'm just a guy in buckskins carrying an old 45cal Lancaster rifle in the woods for deer and hogs, during any season.

same here,
except I live and hunt in CO and MT and carry a 54 for elk,deer, 36 for sm game and a 62 smooth for turkey.
In ALL seasons center fire or other.
I agree 100 percent!
:bow:

 

[roundball]

"...I know such a hypothetical "anything goes" season is far fetched..."

Unfortunately it's not farfetched at all...some states are starting to look at it and North Carolina WRC has it posted as an official proposal that they are going to start looking at, for private land only, not public game lands.

If it passes, anyone with rights to hunt on private land or belongs to a hunting club lease will be able to use any/all weapons from the beginning of what was only bow season right through ML, then gun seasons...basically all of Sept/Oct/Nov/Dec.

The problem is the constantly ever increasing size of the deer herd...increased shrubbery damage to residential neighborhoods, increased deer/auto collisions are becoming big issues.

They've already implemented unlimited doe tags a couple years ago but that hasn't done anything...a hunter already gets 6 tags a year and on average only fill 1-2 of them.
They've already implemented 'urban archery zones' that include subdivisions, town property, etc, but that hasn't done anything.

So they're next going to start looking at the possibility that more modern firepower in the woods for the whole season might be the answer...doubt it'll pass...the first year...but the fact that these issues are even starting to come up for serious review is a sign of the times.

 

[XXX]

Hi FVR,

I respect what you said. This one in particular is a classic;


"The spirit of the muzzleloading hunt, has nothing to do with the season, really has nothing to do with the gun, it has to do with you, the person hunting."

Having said that, I would like to respond to a couple of your statements. I am also someone who hunts with strictly trad guns or bows, even in the regular centerfire season. I think I carry the "traditional spirit " with me when I do this. The thing is, in doing this I am not in any way threatening the centerfire hunters or taking anything away from thier enjoyment of that season. I do encounter more hunters in this season and I am always glad to stop and chat about any game that may have been seen if I bump into anyone. I have not encountered any negative comments from strangers regarding my equipment choices, but the idea that I would handicap myself with a trad weapon in the centerfire season is something most of them find hard to understand. If the hunt with muzzleloaders at all, they tend to be inline guys so thier confusion is compounded. I could overeact to the furrowed brows and disbelieving stares, but I don't and most times we decide how we are going to stay out of each others way and part ways wishing each other luck. In thier view, if I want waste my time in the woods with "inferior" equipment, so be it. In my view, it is not all about industrial productivity, high efficiancy, and racking up a score to compare to others, it is about MY enjoyment. Often times, MY enjoyment means I don't get a shot that would have been a sure thing with a scoped centerfire.

The truth of the matter is that 18th century weapons technology is inferior to a centerfire by the standards of industrial high efficiency. If I was going to war, I would not be reaching for a smokepole and the reasons are obvious to everyone. Effciiency, productivity, and competition is not why I go to the woods though. I go to get away from work and all of that sh*t. In my view, most centerfire setups that would be serviceable in a war zone are "inferior" choices for the purpose of sport hunting. I understand that most centerfire hunters would disagree with my standards of what is and is not sporting. That is fine and there is no problem since they have thier season and I am not advocating changing or eliminating it. The primitive weapons seasons were put in place initially to give rustics like us a chance to hunt in our own fashion, which is very different then the fashion of the centerfire season. The deliberate limitations on weapons capabilities in these primitive seasons are/were intended to be sporting restrictions not practical ones. Just the same way that full-auto, large capacity box magazines and tracers are not allowed in the centerfire season. Would it not be reasonable for centerfire hunters to object to machine gun manufacturers and slobs advocating the legalization of these things in that season? You can't stop technology, true, but you don't have to sit by and allow it to change the ground rules of a sport without an argument. It is reasonable and just for those of us who hunt these seasons to object to changes in these regulations that have the potential to alter the character of the season and therefore our enjoyment of these seasons. I'm not familiar with your contributions to the crossbow debate, but in my view you were not imposing your views on others, you were resisting having others, (Bass Pro, Barnett, Horten, et al ) inflict thier standards on you and me. I didn't really understand your comment about damaging the sport and hunting not being a sport, but I will say that if we let big business and the slobs among us set our standards for us then we probably will not have a sport for very much longer.

 

[XXX]

"...I know such a hypothetical "anything goes" season is far fetched..."

Unfortunately it's not farfetched at all...some states are starting to look at it and North Carolina WRC has it posted as an official proposal that they are going to start looking at, for private land only, not public game lands.

If it passes, anyone with rights to hunt on private land or belongs to a hunting club lease will be able to use any/all weapons from the beginning of what was only bow season right through ML, then gun seasons...basically all of Sept/Oct/Nov/Dec.

The problem is the constantly ever increasing size of the deer herd...increased shrubbery damage to residential neighborhoods, increased deer/auto collisions are becoming big issues.
....So they're next going to start looking at the possibility that more modern firepower in the woods for the whole season might be the answer...doubt it'll pass...the first year...but the fact that these issues are even starting to come up for serious review is a sign of the times.

Sorry to hear that Roundball. The sad truth is that posted land, for whatever reason, is why the deer population is out of control in most places. The new posted signs start popping up around here every September. I lost at least 1 favorite spot this year.

 

[FV Rago]

XXX,

I, me, have never really considered hunting a sport. Ah, that's just me. Hunting is a means of killing animals for food.

We have allowed ourselves to be directed by big retailers to constantly concentrate on the animals size and head gear status. These retailers have pushed, politically through the DNR, different weapons seasons and modern gear.

They want to make more money, so they engineer new modes to hunt. Hey, that's great, that's how companies make money. The American way.

My statement about the crossbow and the articles, mid stream I changed my mind. Why? Because I started hearing bs from traditional hunters who were lobbying for a trad. bow season. Because they did not want to share the woods with wheely bows. Like, who really cares?

Really, where is it going to stop. I'll tell you where it will stop, it will stop when we as hunters destroy the system that we use to hunt.

I am not blind. I understand that I have nothing for big hunting retail chains. I can not get anyting that I want in their stores, not archery or smokepole. I am, along with many here, a dinasours. We will however never truly go away.

We will just be "those" hunters. The ones that ramble in the woods with antique weapons.

The constant fighting between ourselves in the hopes of securing different seasons, and the equipment conflicts, will weaken us for the big fight.

And you know, it will come.

 

[XXX]

Fair enough friend. Keep the faith. :hatsoff:

 

[Travis Gregory]

I would like to respond to this post by saying the future might not be as bleak as some here would think. I myself am only 33yrs old and hit the woods for the first time this morning with my trusty sidelock. Over the last few months I have convinced 2 of my coworkers who are 40 or less years of age to do the same. So today about 50% of the people that I work with who hunt with muzzleloaders went to the woods with sidelock, percussion rifles and have 1 other coworker who would like to but doesnt have a rifle yet. So keep your spirits up, while "traditional" might not dominate the woods like it used to it is still alive and may be on the rebound a bit. :wink: