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What period would the 'trade knives' fit in to?
- Thread starter JimG
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nwtradegun
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get a copy of Madison grants "knives in homespun" America from the libray
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Not much there relative to his question, but a decent book. However, Grant was a tad loose with dating some of the examples in his book.
The other point, there are "backwoods-blacksmith made" type knives and Trade Knives. To me a trade knife is a thin bladed, utility type knife manufacturers in France or England to a known pattern and sold commercially to fur trading companies that stocked them in their trading posts. A trade knife and a backwoods manufacturered knife are not the same. That Madison Grant book shows mostly backwoods made knives.
Not to argue because im a totally new to all this period correct stuff, but love learning about it all. Im a ferrier by trade and like playing in my forge and building may different trinkets. Iv built about a dozen knives mostly out of scrap rasps and leaf springs into various different styles mostly good stout belt knives with 4" blades. Iv never gone and bought any handle material or blade material for that matter, but all my knives host awesome burl handles because that's what I found in my wood pile for the stove. Not to say all the trade knives got fancy treatment but some sure could have. Could they not ?
I suppose im saying if your buying a knife maybe look at a plainer one, But if you built it maybe its braging rights to host some nice burl??????
I suppose im saying if your buying a knife maybe look at a plainer one, But if you built it maybe its braging rights to host some nice burl??????
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If you are referring to the trade scalpers, exotic woods from SA and Africa are about as fancy as they got. No change in standard shapes, just nicer wood. These were not made here, but in England, France, and a few other Euro countries. Walnut, curly maple, osage orange and other American hardwoods were not used, and are out of place on these knives. The common woods on trade scalpers are Euro beech, boxwood, and reddish exotics.
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To a degree, yes, but it would be nearly certain that what he made would be highly influenced by knives that he had seen carried by others. Knives of the common man were seldom objects of pride, but more just indispensable tools to be used up and replaced, which the cheap trade knives usually took care of. As with anything regularily carried on the person, the more affluent may have had nicer knives, but most often would have bought them or had them made, rather than made by themselves.
50cal.cliff
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Agreed with Wick!
Think about it this way the common man back in that day didn't have a lot of money and the same butcher knife he used on his table would have doubled as his carry knife when he needed one in the field!
Trade knives were exactly what the name implied. They were often cheap knives used in trade with the American Indian. Not always cheap but more often than not!
Take a look at the book, Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell. In that book and a few others you will see actual supply inventories of what they requested from there suppliers for the next trip into Indian country. The knives were mostly for trade for furs with the Indian and in some cases safe passage.
Hollywood has more often than not got it wrong, partly because they didn't care to get it right but partly because no one wanted to look at something that looked like a butcher knife!
Think about it this way the common man back in that day didn't have a lot of money and the same butcher knife he used on his table would have doubled as his carry knife when he needed one in the field!
Trade knives were exactly what the name implied. They were often cheap knives used in trade with the American Indian. Not always cheap but more often than not!
Take a look at the book, Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell. In that book and a few others you will see actual supply inventories of what they requested from there suppliers for the next trip into Indian country. The knives were mostly for trade for furs with the Indian and in some cases safe passage.
Hollywood has more often than not got it wrong, partly because they didn't care to get it right but partly because no one wanted to look at something that looked like a butcher knife!
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To All,
I'd guess that it depends on what you call a "trade knife". = The oldest (and certainly authentic) one that I've ever seen is in a display at the Dillard University Library. - It's a VERY early SPANISH-made knife (likely early 16th Century) that looks like a long-bladed "drop-point kitchen or chef's knife", with what is likely a plain bone handle. - According to the plaque, it was of "a type and style traded for furs and other goods to the local Louisiana Natives".
I would guess that those sort of imported "trade knives" pretty much "died out" in the 19th Century, with the coming of cheap, locally made, knives from blacksmith shops and domestic factories.
MERRY CHRISTMAS, satx
I'd guess that it depends on what you call a "trade knife". = The oldest (and certainly authentic) one that I've ever seen is in a display at the Dillard University Library. - It's a VERY early SPANISH-made knife (likely early 16th Century) that looks like a long-bladed "drop-point kitchen or chef's knife", with what is likely a plain bone handle. - According to the plaque, it was of "a type and style traded for furs and other goods to the local Louisiana Natives".
I would guess that those sort of imported "trade knives" pretty much "died out" in the 19th Century, with the coming of cheap, locally made, knives from blacksmith shops and domestic factories.
MERRY CHRISTMAS, satx
De_LaLonde
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I can't add to the thread regarding dates or correctness, but I do have one of the trade knives you linked to. They are made Dean Oliver, and his mark is the canoe on the blade. I also have a Jeff White trade knife, but I like the Dean Oliver much more. It's a bit thicker and has a better finish and feel to it. Here's some pictures if your interested.
Left
Right
Sheathed
Side by side 1
Side by side 2
Left
Right
Sheathed
Side by side 1
Side by side 2
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A good all around knife at a good price, but not a trade knife copy.
nchawkeye said:http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/464/1
Here is Track's page, they say 1750-1790 but include Southwest trade and a Lewis and Clark...
I bought one of the English trades a while back, for $50 it has a decent blade...I've since skinned several deer with it, pretty cool...
I've been told they aren't PC but for the price, they are pretty similar and a good value...
I have two like the TOW ENG. One with piercings, one without. They were $15.00 at a ronny.
We have to remember that 'trade' often was used to mean knifes used for work, a persons trade. Black smiths made knifes carried by the common man... a Trades man...who carrired a trade knife.
Today we like more fancy knifes but simple butcher are right. Simple handles are best...but we have to remember also there was no tv, few books ect. Winters and evenings were filled with little projects. Women did fancy work, men would whittle and do' custom ' work on their own things. So a cheap knife with a fancier then normal handle. A one of a kind used by that person alone. Sharpened away to nothing, broken, given away, lost and not looked for, because it was just a cheap tool.
Today we like more fancy knifes but simple butcher are right. Simple handles are best...but we have to remember also there was no tv, few books ect. Winters and evenings were filled with little projects. Women did fancy work, men would whittle and do' custom ' work on their own things. So a cheap knife with a fancier then normal handle. A one of a kind used by that person alone. Sharpened away to nothing, broken, given away, lost and not looked for, because it was just a cheap tool.
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You might be surprised at how few knives turn up in blacksmith records/ledgers from the 18th c. At Boonesboro, I believe it was none, and for a long time, that WAS the western frontier.
I don't think there was any reason to make a knife when they were available. A blacksmith had plenty of work, shoeing horses, fixing all sorts of tools, etc. Forging, grinding, and hafting a knife as a one-off takes a lot of hours. Meanwhile a fella could go to the trading post and buy a knife for less. Now gunsmiths sometimes made fine knives and fancy pipe tomahawks, which would probably sell for far more than trade knives and maybe be worthwhile to sell. Many of the original backwoods knives we know are from the period before the Civil War up through the Great Depression.
Cane knives, corn knives, and hog stickers were perhaps more likely to be forged on the frontier because knives of their heft or form would be less available as trade knives than common butcher or scalper styles.
Cane knives, corn knives, and hog stickers were perhaps more likely to be forged on the frontier because knives of their heft or form would be less available as trade knives than common butcher or scalper styles.
Rod Lassey
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They certainly were available, that's for sure. I just got done totaling up the knives in a single shipment up the Missouri by the American Fur Company. The scalpers alone were in excess of 6000 knives, packed in casks. And they made several shipments like that every year, year in and year out. Considering the population beyond the settlements, both Indian and Euro, it seems like there must have been 50 knives for every man, woman, and child. The suprising thing is how relatively rare they are today, they were used up, worn out, and tossed away----they were literally cheap enough to be nearly disposable.
Butchers were higher price, and fewer in number. Cartouche knives were the fewest of all.
Here's a few good articles on the Wilson trade butcher knife of the early 1800s:
http://www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonbutcher.pdf
http://www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonmarks1831.pdf
http://www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonmarks1832.pdf
Rod
Butchers were higher price, and fewer in number. Cartouche knives were the fewest of all.
Here's a few good articles on the Wilson trade butcher knife of the early 1800s:
http://www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonbutcher.pdf
http://www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonmarks1831.pdf
http://www.scandinavianmountainmen.se/includes/misc/johnwilsonmarks1832.pdf
Rod
My typing skills suck what I ment to say was blacksmits at times made knifes but most were imported and cheap. My brainn gets ahead of my one finger typing and I'm on to the next sentence before I'm done with the last.
I agree. When I bought these I bought them because I liked them. Not to protect myself from being escorted out of a ronny because my knife might not be acceptable as "authentic". I just mentioned them because I have them and they resemble the picture someone posted.
