WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

[Hatchet-Jack]

Read this system for working up a load:
Traditional Muzzle Loader - Developing an accurate load for a black powder muzzleloading rifle

 

[Carbon 6]

Carbon, once I got a good grouping at 25 yards, you said to move it out further and group it. Not sure what that means? If my grouping is good at 25, would I want to change it again at 50 and lose what was accomplished at 25? Or did you mean that I should change the actual sight itself at 50 rather than changing the load that was determined at 25?

25 yards is a standard distance to make sure you are 'on paper' and getting some kind of consistency.

Move to 50 and shoot another, say three rounds, CHANGING NOTHING, and loading exactly as you did for the 25 yard target.

You are looking for consistency only at this point. One thing at a time!

Pretty much what he said.
Remember what I said about less error and variables.
You need to do a lot more organized shooting.

If my grouping is good at 25, would I want to change it again at 50 and lose what was accomplished at 25?

That depends, on how far you want to shoot and how well it groups. where it prints on paper and energy are also factors, the difference between target shooting and hunting.

 

[EC121]

Almost any load will shoot tight groups at 25yds. A few shots at 25yds. will get it on the paper, but 50yds. is where the grouping shots will more readily show the errors.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

What would shredded patches tell me Tom A Hawk? What about if they were burned through or they were totally destroyed? Thanks

If the patches are totally destroyed or appear to have the center cut out this may indicate a sharp muzzle/too tight patch combination where the patch is cut though at loading.

 

[Spikebuck]

"Moving Out" to me is first at 25 yards until I have a good group....then 50 to refine...but I'm not moving sights at all yet unless I'm off the paper and hitting off into my larger cardboard backer. Then I go to 75 yards and make sure I can CONSISTENTLY get a good group before I'm doing any sighting refinements. I also don't do 3-shot groups. Minimum 5 and really I like to shoot 10 shots before I change anything in the load development (which would then be ONE component of the load at a time). Further, I usually will shoot quite a few shots not caring much where it hits if I have any patch issues. This is just to put a little wear on the lands and see if the issue (if I think it's cutting) gets better or goes away. Some barrels are better than others as far as sharp lands and take fewer shots. One way to see if it's the crown causing damage is to just start the ball down the barrel an inch or two, then pull it. Does the patch have damage? If so, it's probably the crown cutting them on entry. When inspecting shot patches, I always hold them up to the light. With a new barrel, one will many times just see very small, almost "pinholes", in the same pattern as your rifling. These are harder to see if just casually examining the spent patch.

 

[renegadehunter]

From a solid bench with sand bags or similar.
Absolutely work up a tight grouping load before worrying about sighting in, except to make sure it's close at 25 so you'll be on paper at 50. If groups are at least 2" or less at 25 and patches look good, then I move straight to 50. Stay at 25 and play with patch size and lube amount until patches look good and groups are decent as needed. I start with a lower end powder charge so that poor patches aren't the result of too high of a charge, just eliminates one thing to consider right off the bat.

Once patches look good and I'm hitting center at 25 with at least 2" or less groups, then I move to 50. At the lower end of the powder charge spectrum for whatever caliber rifle it is, shoot 3 shots, up the charge 5 grains, shoot another 3, etc. etc. until finding the point of the groups shrinking and then starting to open back up. The last charge used before the group size started to increase again is what you're looking for. Be aware that there are sometimes lower charges and upper charges that a rifle may like, aka "target" charges and "hunting" charges. My main goal is hunting, so I start at the lower end of a "hunting" charge. (I realize that can be a highly debated thing all on its own)
After optimum powder charge is found I like to play with patch thickness and lube quantities to see if I can shrink groups down more.
I swab every shot when doing the above. Once I'm happy with group size at 50 and the sights are dialed in, then sight in at whatever zero you want. After that I like to shoot at my zero sight in distance without swabbing. I just swab every shot all of the time, but it's nice to know if groups size stays consistent and loading effort is acceptable in case I find myself in a hunting situation where I want the time benefit of skipping swabbing if necessary. My Renegade for whatever reason, and with a very tight fitting PRB combo, absolutely goes haywire in where it puts them after three shots if I don't swab.

 

[Okie Hog]

Check the tang screws for looseness. Recently had a hard time with a .50 caliber New Englander that was all over the place. Both tang screws were loose,

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Also remember that if your 5" right at 25 you will be 10 inches right at 50. Sounds like the rifle shot where it should have. I would center my front and rear sight on the barrel and mark the barrel with a marker or something so u have a reference point and then ONCE I had a consistent group start adjusting my sights.

The OP adjusted for windage at 25 yards & then shot it & it was dead on. Then he move to 50 yards and it was 10" off. So it didn't shoot where it should have.

 

[flashpoint]

25 yards is a standard distance to make sure you are 'on paper' and getting some kind of consistency.

Move to 50 and shoot another, say three rounds, CHANGING NOTHING, and loading exactly as you did for the 25 yard target.

You are looking for consistency only at this point. One thing at a time!

Great advice. Thanks

 

[flashpoint]

Here is a page about recovered patches from and old Shooter's Bible - Black Powder Guide.View attachment 52473

That's a great reference. Appreciate you posting it.

 

[Spikebuck]

The OP adjusted for windage at 25 yards & then shot it & it was dead on. Then he move to 50 yards and it was 10" off. So it didn't shoot where it should have.

It didn't shoot where he wanted it to, but since he had no idea about his group size, the 50 yard shot (though perhaps unlikely) may have been on the outer limits of his current group size. If he hadn't adjusted the sights, maybe it would have been 15" off at 50. I agree it would have to be an unusually large "group" (basically all over the place) to be dead on at 25 and 10" off at 50, but without knowing what size group, it's possible....especially if patches are blowing completely apart, for example. Also...one shot at 25 is not a group. Maybe "dead on" was a one-time anomaly...a slight pull at the time of the shot, or whatever.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Read this system for working up a load:
Traditional Muzzle Loader - Developing an accurate load for a black powder muzzleloading rifle

Seriously read this it's a great source of information!

 

[flashpoint]

25 yards is a standard distance to make sure you are 'on paper' and getting some kind of consistency.

Move to 50 and shoot another, say three rounds, CHANGING NOTHING, and loading exactly as you did for the 25 yard target.

You are looking for consistency only at this point. One thing at a time!

HiDesertHUnter
Just to clarify, Once I get a good tight group at 25 yards, then I shoot 3 rounds at 50 yards changing nothing. Now at 50 if the groups are not as tight as 25 and are a little farther apart, what do you think should be my next move? Thanks so much.

 

[flashpoint]

It didn't shoot where he wanted it to, but since he had no idea about his group size, the 50 yard shot (though perhaps unlikely) may have been on the outer limits of his current group size. If he hadn't adjusted the sights, maybe it would have been 15" off at 50. I agree it would have to be an unusually large "group" (basically all over the place) to be dead on at 25 and 10" off at 50, but without knowing what size group, it's possible....especially if patches are blowing completely apart, for example. Also...one shot at 25 is not a group. Maybe "dead on" was a one-time anomaly...a slight pull at the time of the shot, or whatever.

I agree Spike. I should have spent more time in trying to shoot groups. The original T/C rear sight was recently replaced with a Cherokee rear sight. So with my first shot, I was amazed it was on the paper thankfully, and pretty much even with the bull only out to the right. I know now I should have continued to shoot 2 or 3 more shots. Instead, I adjusted the windage so my next shot would hit in the bull. appreciate your help.

 

[TreeMan]

HiDesertHUnter
Just to clarify, Once I get a good tight group at 25 yards, then I shoot 3 rounds at 50 yards changing nothing. Now at 50 if the groups are not as tight as 25 and are a little farther apart, what do you think should be my next move? Thanks so much.

Unless you are really good, have a really good rifle and a really good load your groups will never be nearly as good at 50 as they are at 25. If your dead on at 25 you should be pretty close at 50. You must take into consideration wind and other factors before altering your sights at 50-100 yards.

 

[HiDesertHunter]

Now at 50 if the groups are not as tight as 25 and are a little farther apart, what do you think should be my next move? Thanks so much.

Before you move on have you established a consistent grouping at 25 yards yet? If so please post a pic so we can see what you are getting at 25 yards.

Unless I missed it did you mention what you were using for a rest?

As previously recommended by SpikeBuck you should probably shoot a minimum of five shots - and maybe more regardless of the range.

In conclusion consistency is everything - down to the smallest thing. Even for me when I was testing the new sight on my Zouave yesterday I did everything CONSTANTLY - down to leveling off the powder in my measure and ensuring the patch was perfectly centered on the muzzle before setting a ball in it and carefully starting it with my starter rod and to applying the same amount of pressure on it when seating it on the powder charge.

 

[flashpoint]

Seriously read this it's a great source of information!

I just printed it out Hatchet-Jack. Looks like terrific info. I'll read it tonight. Thanks.

 

[flashpoint]

Before you move on have you established a consistent grouping at 25 yards yet? If so please post a pic so we can see what you are getting at 25 yards.

Unless I missed it did you mention what you were using for a rest?

As previously recommended by SpikeBuck you should probably shoot a minimum of five shots - and maybe more regardless of the range.

In conclusion consistency is everything - down to the smallest thing. Even for me when I was testing the new sight on my Zouave yesterday I did everything CONSTANTLY - down to leveling off the powder in my measure and ensuring the patch was perfectly centered on the muzzle before setting a ball in it and carefully starting it with my starter rod and to applying the same amount of pressure on it when seating it on the powder charge.

HDH, I didn't mention it, but I was shooting in a harvested soy bean field. I was leaning across my trunk with my elbo resting on my gun case; pretty much like a prone position if I was shooting on the ground. I know it wasn't the best for sure.

 

[HiDesertHunter]

I was leaning across my trunk with my elbo resting on my gun case;

I don't mean to pass judgement but before you do anything further you need to establish a MUCH better rest.

Sheet metal vehicle trunk lids and gun cases are poor support, and on top of this leaning (while still on your feet) is not very stable.

At a minimum either bring something to lay on to create a prone position, or something such as a folding camp table that can be set up and the legs spread out to solidify it a best as possible. Also a solid seat is necessary and not just a folding camp chair that moves around.

The pic below is my 'bench' I use. It is a fairly heavy plastic camp table and I make sure all four legs are solid on the ground before I shoot.

Also (not shown) but my seat is a fairly solid, heavy duty plastic crate for milk jugs, etc.

Bottom line is you need to establish a much better rest before proceeding.

 

[flashpoint]

Wow, that definitely looks like a solid set up with the gun rest, table and all. I will start on getting together the right kind of set up. I know you weren't passing judgement, just giving me good advice. Thanks. PS Great looking gun.