What's the difference? Pyro/Black

[mommicked]

Ok, I'm sure this one has been discussed forwards and backwards, but probably gets re-discussed every time a new feller comes aboard. I am NOT trying to start a war, I just want a basic opinion.

What is the difference between black powder and subs? Why were subs invented/or what advantages are they suppposed to have? Why does every gun store carry pyro if black powder is truly better? How many substitute black powders are there, and how many brands of black are there? I've heard of Pyro&PSelect, and 777, and Goex and Elephant.

This post is not intended to get folks in an uproar. I've only shot Pyro and PSelect. I'm desiring to get educated. I hope you shoot what you like, and respect the other feller's opinion. I'm just looking for new opinions, because I'm not sure I'm happy with the powder I'm shooting, though I can't explain why. Most Humbly,

Mommicked

 

[blacksmithman64]

Its been discussed numerous times, bottom line is black ignites faster, its way more accurate, and smells a whole lot better. And I will sooner sit out a shoot than pour pyro into one of my guns again!

 

[Headhunter]

HERE ! HERE !

Headhunter

 

[bob1961]

my opinon is that subs are sold more cause more of the inline crowd uses it, and it's easier to ignite in one also....just my .02 :v .........bob

 

[Titus]

tried our local sub a while back and went right back to the good old black stuff.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Real black has a lower ignition temperature (approx. 400 degrees, I think). Pyro and the subs have a higher ignition point. Because flintlocks and many caps produce sparks/flame around 500-600 degrees (again, I think...not completely sure) the subs don't ignite well in traditional ML's at all.

Also, as mentioned earlier, real black tends to burn more consistently and evenly, producing more accurate results.

Further, like mentioned earlier, the subs were made pretty much for the in-line rifles, and do tend to work better in them.

The reason every store carries subs but not much black include these:
1. Black has been listed as a Class A explosive by the BATFE, and therefore has a rather stringent set of guidelines about storage and sales, and licensing procedures that are sometimes quite difficult for individual stores to meet.

2. There is A HUGE amount of financial inscentive for stores to carry subs. In-line companies have spent millions advertising and making their rifles and the subs seem like the greatest thing ever. As a result, the overwhelming majority of people who hunt during muzzleloader seasons seem to do it with in-lines, and aren't interested in the traditional side of things (such as, they don't go target shooting with them, just a few shots a year to hunt). As a result the smaller shops have a harder time making a profit with real black, whichi is harder to get permission for and sells much less in terms of volume. Therefore they carry more subs which are easier to sell.

I'm sure there are many more reasons, but those are the ones that jump out at me. Hope this made sense.

 

[mommicked]

This is now starting to make sense. I've never shot black, due to hype around Pyro in the gun mags,and availability.

If/when I switch to black, what differences should I expect? Cleaning, load volume, handling, etc?

Is black more, less or equally humidity sensitive? Humidity here runs 80+% from about now till late October, and often above 70% any time of year. Going a month in the summer at 95% is normal. Think Caribean, and you have the idear. Yup, I know, Keep Yer Powder Dry is an oldie for a good reason!

Also, the local BP shop, about an hour away, carries Goex I think.(I'd like to support them, as they are there when I need them, and would like to see them do well). Good brand? I've read here somewhere about another brand being messier and harder to clean..?

 

[roundball]

This is now starting to make sense. I've never shot black, due to hype around Pyro in the gun mags,and availability.

If/when I switch to black, what differences should I expect? Cleaning, load volume, handling, etc?

Is black more, less or equally humidity sensitive? Humidity here runs 80+% from about now till late October, and often above 70% any time of year. Going a month in the summer at 95% is normal. Think Caribean, and you have the idear. Yup, I know, Keep Yer Powder Dry is an oldie for a good reason!

Also, the local BP shop, about an hour away, carries Goex I think.(I'd like to support them, as they are there when I need them, and would like to see them do well). Good brand? I've read here somewhere about another brand being messier and harder to clean..?

Actually Pyrodex is more corrosive than blackpowder...but in either case, you need to clean MLs throughly after using either one of them.

IMO, it could be argued that Goex is the best price / performance choice of the various BP brands...I know it's all I use and have never found it lacking for anything...plus it's made right here in the good old USA.

Humidity is a good thing when shooting BO as it gets the fouling soft in the barrel and each time you seat a patched ball, it wipes the bore clean so you don't even have to wipe between shots...but on dry humidity days you usually have to.

Never met anybody who used BP subs, then tried Goex, then went back to BP subs.

 

[MikeC]

BP is the best and only powder for flintlocks. I have found subs work perfectly in caplocks and I do use Pyrodex in mine. I still clean between shots regardless of the powder used so that is not an issue.

The reason subs are so popular in stores is the liability and red-tape involved if you sell BP. If it weren't for that I would say they would all carry it right along with the subs.

I know of a couple stores that only carry subs in pellet form as the restrictions are less than the same product in loose form. I asked one of them why and they said the solids are listed as a solid propellent similiar to model rocket engine propellent.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

Real black powder is a class C explosive, while Pyrodex and substitutes are flammable solids, like smokeless powder. Explosives require more in the way of permits and storage facilities than smokeless, which is why you don't find it everywhere.

My preference is for genuine black powder, for the reasons stated above. it's harder to get, to be sure, but there's really no acceptable substitute , IMO.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

you are correct Scatter, black is impact sensitive and static sensitive also. More regs to store and transport it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Correction: Static electricity does not ignite Black Powder. BP is impact sensitive, however, and a sharp blow will cause ignition. But, the force involved is way more than would occur dropping a can to the ground from head height level. Try a hammer blow on da pile of powder on the top of an anvil.

BP today is coated with graphite, and that protects it from most friction, and from static electricity. The flashpoint of paper or wood is about 451 degrees, and Black Powder ignites at 400+ degrees, so it is very safe to handle providing some common sense is used. Store and transport out of direct sunlight. Keep it dry, as water will negate the ability of the Potassium Nitrate to burn. If you powder does get wet, just let it dry out. It may dry into a chunk, and the graphite will have washed off to some extent, but it will still burn. Some people use brass screens to break clumps back down to usuable granules. This can be dangous work unless the powder clump is dampened, so that the granules have to be laid out separately to dry . I don't recommend trying to do this at home, for these reasons. But it has bene done.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

First, welcome to the Forum!

Now to the questions at hand:

1. Real Black goes bang when you squeeze the trigger, sometimes subs don't.
2. Consistant useage will tell you that real Black is superior in consistant results. Better groups, ignition, firing after a damp patch, etc.
3. One of our league members is an Olympic shooting coach. Somebody gave him a pound of Pyrodex. He used it in his single-shot pistol at the last match, lost the match, had hangfires, went to the range on a practice day and couldn't get the pistol to group! Needless to say he's switching back to real Black. Haven't ever heard of anyone switching to Pyro and staying with it!
4. The stores carry subs due to customer demand. Stupid sheep get led to slaughter...and the average ML hunter sights in his guns once a year and moans about the cost of a box of shells. The stores probably make close to the same mark-up, PERCENTAGE WISE, selling the subs. But since the gross profit is based on a PERCENTAGE, and the subs cost more, the store may actully make more money on a pound of subs than on a pound of real Black. Say a store buys Black for $8.00 / pound, then sells it for $16.00...same store buys subs at $11.50 / pound and using the same percentage (a 100% mark-up), sells the subs for $23.00 / pound. The store makes 43+ percent more profit on the sale of the subs!! If you owned the store, what would you be telling the knuckleheads that work for you to sell?? Follow the money...there is a reason why the manufacturers of subs buy all of those ads. Feel like one of the sheep yet??

Hope the above along with most others on this thread gives you something to think about.

A sinfull member of the "every time I pull the trigger, it goes bang club",

Dave

 

[MikeC]

First, welcome to the Forum!

Now to the questions at hand:

1. Real Black goes bang when you squeeze the trigger, sometimes subs don't.
2. Consistant useage will tell you that real Black is superior in consistant results. Better groups, ignition, firing after a damp patch, etc.
3. One of our league members is an Olympic shooting coach. Somebody gave him a pound of Pyrodex. He used it in his single-shot pistol at the last match, lost the match, had hangfires, went to the range on a practice day and couldn't get the pistol to group! Needless to say he's switching back to real Black. Haven't ever heard of anyone switching to Pyro and staying with it!
4. The stores carry subs due to customer demand. Stupid sheep get led to slaughter...and the average ML hunter sights in his guns once a year and moans about the cost of a box of shells. The stores probably make close to the same mark-up, PERCENTAGE WISE, selling the subs. But since the gross profit is based on a PERCENTAGE, and the subs cost more, the store may actully make more money on a pound of subs than on a pound of real Black. Say a store buys Black for $8.00 / pound, then sells it for $16.00...same store buys subs at $11.50 / pound and using the same percentage (a 100% mark-up), sells the subs for $23.00 / pound. The store makes 43+ percent more profit on the sale of the subs!! If you owned the store, what would you be telling the knuckleheads that work for you to sell?? Follow the money...there is a reason why the manufacturers of subs buy all of those ads. Feel like one of the sheep yet??

Hope the above along with most others on this thread gives you something to think about.

A sinfull member of the "every time I pull the trigger, it goes bang club",

Dave

I personally don't like to scare people off of anything and just try to provide facts as I know them and have them make their own mind up.

Regarding your #1. If that is your personal experience you should state so. I have never experienced a hang or dry fire due to any powder type that was properly stored and used.

#2. I agree although for pratical hunting and casual target accuracy I see no difference, and I don't look for it. I do sight in my caplocks and flintlock with BP and hunt with it exclusivly.

#3. You don't state if the pistol is a caplock or flintlock. If a flintlock he should have known better. Also I would not trust any powder "someone gave me" for competition. I would use powder I have personallly stored from the original purchase. I have used pyrodex from the mid 1980's that someone gave me though that worked flawlessly, why throw it out. I was only punching holes in paper.

Not sure about the stores you go to but the ones I know would love to sell BP but it's not in their best interest to do so for reasons stated above. It's not about the money, the subs they sell or the amount sold would not change. If someone wants subs they will buy subs and the same for BP. I would bet if you surveyed stores that sell subs and not BP 100% would say they would love to sell it but the regs are to stringent. I had one owner tell me he knows the sales for BP would be through the roof but the regulations and insurance issues are not worth it.

I shoot both and don't see myself as "sheep".

 

[renovato]

Years back when pyro first hit the market, I jumped at it. I was young and still in the "if it's newer it has to be better" phase. I shot it exclusively for several years and couldn't figure out why I wasn't shooting as well as I did with real BP. Then I switched back and realized that the powder makes all the difference in the world.

BP ignites easier and faster, which means less time between when the trigger is pulled and the ball leaves the muzzle. That's always a bonus when it comes to accuracy. It's also a lot more consistent in velocity, which is also very important for accuracy.

Real BP is also LESS corrosive than Pyrodex, oddly enough. It's generally easier to clean too, though I've heard others say they have less cleanup with Pyrodex. The only real benefit I see to the subs is they're more easily available. It's hard to find real BP in some areas. I ended up having to make a bulk order of it to get a decent price, but it was worth it.

I'm not a purist. If a sub ever actually outperformed BP for my needs, and was as affordable, I'd use it. None of them do, yet.

 

[john12865]

If you like playing with yourself. Stick with the subs.
At some point you'll get tired of that.
Once you go Black, you'll never go back.
Subs are Mental Masturbation without the climax.

 

[mommicked]

If you like playing with yourself. Stick with the subs.
At some point you'll get tired of that.
Once you go Black, you'll never go back.
Subs are Mental Masturbation without the climax.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

:haha:

 

[Jac Spring]

I was not aware that the subs shoot better in the in-lines - just that the in-lines use hot-hot-hot shotgun primers and as mentioned the subs are available everywhere and not restricted in storage like real black.

I shoot Graf's ffg in my 50 and 54 and like it alot.

I'm currently using Pyrodex P in my cap and balls but will probably switch to black once my supply is gone.

 

[PA16th]

My reasons for black powder:


Better ignition and Black Powder has that historically correct smell in the air after a shot.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Mike C,

I wasn't trying to scare anybody off, just stating the facts as I see them. Lots of other folks on this Forum have stated so in the recent past, and I'm speaking from experience. This is in regards to my No. 1. and to No. 2 as well.

During a competition, I've had to help a Pyro shooter with a hangfire by removing the nipple and pouring a few grains of Goex into the gun, replace the nipple, re-cap and fire the gun. Although I personally don't use Pyro, I've had to handle the result of someone who does. This shooter I'm talking about knows how to handle a cap gun quite well and has several years of experience with BP arms. Some guns just don't like the subs.

In regards to No. 3, the gun is a caplock and the powder was a recent purchase by himself...he just wanted to try it.

As far as the stores are concerned, I beg to disagree with the whole hasmat :bull: argument. I see things this way: If I'm a store owner and I have enough customers clammering for a particular product, I figure out a way of meeting the needs of my customers. If I have to spend money on a permit, a safe, etc., I'd just pass along the cost of doing bussiness. Maybe I'd have to sell the Goex for the same price or just a little less than the subs to pay for the extra expenses involved. My customers would be happy getting what they want and not having to pay anything more to get it. If buying real Black by mail-order is as easy as is posted on this Forum (about a dollar a pound for the hasmat fee), the stores are just making an excuse or are LAZY. After-all, they can get the safe for wholesale anyway!

I'm not trying to cause a rift, just showing the pure economics of the situation. The price difference in real Black on the per pound wholesale level will eventually pay for the permit and the safe. Most commercial insurance companies that write policies for sporting goods stores treat live centerfire ammo as a "hazardous material" anyway.

All the best, Dave