I basically started with Pyrodex. P is one of the most accurate powders I have ever tried. Somewhere I have 13 straight bullets in a row on a target. The gun was a 50 caliber mountain pistol with a 2.5 power TC railmount magnum pistol scope. The rail mount was creeping and they are in a close to perfect line headed up and right. That was 30 yards off a stump. You can't blame your accuracy problems on the powder. It may take learning to use Pyrodex if you are used to using black. You may have to change your loads for Pyrodex also. 777 is also usable, altho I like Pyrodex better. Black is better, but the others are usable. Do not put 130 grains of 3f 777 in a factory caplock and touch it off under s 385 leaning forward off the bench! It'll learn ya if ya do!
What's the difference? Pyro/Black
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Rat Trapper
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Here is the problem from the store owners side:
To sell black powder you have to have a special lic. The lic is expensive and eats up the profit from small stores. Black powder needs to be delivered in person by a sales rep, or you have to pay a hazmat fee. If you sell black powder there is also a bunch of paper work, and I don't know anyone who likes paper work. Again eatting into profit. The big kicker is very few muzzle loading hunters today are buying black powder. A lot of stores have a very hard time selling used or new traditional rifles. Example the store in town has had a TC renegate rifle with double set triggers and the orginal box. Rifle appears to not have been fired it's in mint condition. They orginally priced it at $300, at the spring sale it was marked down to $250 and it is still there. During the year they sell lots of the new style muzzle loaders and all the equipment to feed and clean 'em. Because we here like the traditional rifles, we tend to forget we are in the minority.
To sell black powder you have to have a special lic. The lic is expensive and eats up the profit from small stores. Black powder needs to be delivered in person by a sales rep, or you have to pay a hazmat fee. If you sell black powder there is also a bunch of paper work, and I don't know anyone who likes paper work. Again eatting into profit. The big kicker is very few muzzle loading hunters today are buying black powder. A lot of stores have a very hard time selling used or new traditional rifles. Example the store in town has had a TC renegate rifle with double set triggers and the orginal box. Rifle appears to not have been fired it's in mint condition. They orginally priced it at $300, at the spring sale it was marked down to $250 and it is still there. During the year they sell lots of the new style muzzle loaders and all the equipment to feed and clean 'em. Because we here like the traditional rifles, we tend to forget we are in the minority.
Dave,
Your forgetting one piece of the pie. As a retail store owner insurance is high to begin with. From what I was told handling / selling BP drives the cost of insurance up so much that he would have to sell at wholesale levels but retail prices consistently to make up the difference before even showing a profit on it and the insurance increases are not a one shot deal like a safe or a permit, they are there for as long as the business is open. There is a world of difference between hazardous materials and explosives of the category BP is in. From an insurers standpoint you just increased his looses exponentially.
It's easy to speculate but if you talk to the store owners and get facts, the ones who pay the bills and calculate profit, they'll tell you.
Your forgetting one piece of the pie. As a retail store owner insurance is high to begin with. From what I was told handling / selling BP drives the cost of insurance up so much that he would have to sell at wholesale levels but retail prices consistently to make up the difference before even showing a profit on it and the insurance increases are not a one shot deal like a safe or a permit, they are there for as long as the business is open. There is a world of difference between hazardous materials and explosives of the category BP is in. From an insurers standpoint you just increased his looses exponentially.
It's easy to speculate but if you talk to the store owners and get facts, the ones who pay the bills and calculate profit, they'll tell you.
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Mike C,
This reminds me of the movie Crimson Tide, when Jason Robards has Hackman and Washington before the board of inquiry. We're both right, and both probably a little wrong. Let's agree to disagree
.
It does all boil down to the allmighty buck. If BP sold for twice what it does now, I'd still buy it just for the smell :shocked2: and I think by then Mr. Storeowner could find a way to make it worth his while.
Continued success to all who use the subs!
Dave
This reminds me of the movie Crimson Tide, when Jason Robards has Hackman and Washington before the board of inquiry. We're both right, and both probably a little wrong. Let's agree to disagree
. It does all boil down to the allmighty buck. If BP sold for twice what it does now, I'd still buy it just for the smell :shocked2: and I think by then Mr. Storeowner could find a way to make it worth his while.
Continued success to all who use the subs!
Dave
MikeC said:
Liability is a lot of it but, I think profit figures in as well. Follow this:
Cabelas right now is selling Pyrodex pellets for the in-line boys - your choice, 100 either 50 or 30 grain pellets - $26.99.[url] http://www.cabelas.com/cabela...s&QueryText=pellets&Ntx=matchall&N=4887&Nty=1[/url]
Breaking that down in the 30 grain size
3000 grains of Pyrodex =
194.4 grams which converts to
6.85 ounces @ 26.99 or $63.04 a pound :rotf:
You could buy 3 pounds of Swiss for that price :shake:
It can't cost that much to mold that stuff into cute little pellets for them in line boys! Maybe the profit margin is a little better on that stuff compared to black :hmm:
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spottedpony
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Maybe i'm an exception here, but, I've shot goex, pyrodex and 777, and at least in my case, find little difference in my rifles, all percussion, one doesnt like pyrodex quite as well, but shoots goex and 777 equally well, the other doesnt care for 777. & no difference in pyrodex or goex. in all cases cleaning is the major point & no matter which you shoot cleaning must be done equally well. I shoot goex mainly due to the cost difference and ability to get a cheaper price by buying bulk, but if i had to purchase the real stuff locally it would be no cost saving on a per lb basis. (about 20 bucks per lb for any of the three) I do give 777 a bit of an edge as far as clean shooting and cleaning goes, with goex i do have to dry patch a bit more often but i find that is the only advantage.
In rock locks i read and hear its a way different issue though as the subs are harder to ignite reliably so thats something to take into consideration too.
In rock locks i read and hear its a way different issue though as the subs are harder to ignite reliably so thats something to take into consideration too.
Agree, the pellets are a joke with regards to cost. As far as selling handling them, no different than model rocket propellant available in hobby shops. Classified as a solid propellant.J.R. said:
Regarding the profit margin on pellets. The retailers aren't making anymore than the they are on the loose stuff. The manufacturers are making the real profit on pellets. They are not selling by the pound, it's by lot size.
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Rat Trapper
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It seems an awful lot of people just getting into muzzle loaders start out with the pellets. With pellets they are off and shooting with less stuff to buy before the first shot. Most of these same people switch over to loose powder later on. It is easier to sell a muzzle loading outfit if you can keep down the amount of first out lay. Plus you need to keep it simple at the begining. Pellets are very expensive compared to loose powder. However they do shoot pretty well in in-lines, and not the best choice in traditional rifles. I think the part the pellets play in all this is, it helps our ranks of muzzle loader shooters grow.
I live in a small town of 6000. The local sport shop used to sell black powder. During the time it sold it, I was working there (now retired) and we sold less than 3 doz cans per year. How many insurance companies would give you a policy if they knew you had black powder in your home? Would they pay on the policy if you lost your home and black powder was in the home??
It is the feds, insurance companies, local restrictions that are making black powder harder to come by. GOEX is now making a sub, I think that tells us where things are headed.
I live in a small town of 6000. The local sport shop used to sell black powder. During the time it sold it, I was working there (now retired) and we sold less than 3 doz cans per year. How many insurance companies would give you a policy if they knew you had black powder in your home? Would they pay on the policy if you lost your home and black powder was in the home??
It is the feds, insurance companies, local restrictions that are making black powder harder to come by. GOEX is now making a sub, I think that tells us where things are headed.
Rat...You make some very good points. :hatsoff:
Regarding Goex's sub, it's made by American Pioneer Powder, basically it's Shocky's Gold. Your right though it does show a pattern.
I hope BP is always around. Everytime I head up to Cabelas I swing by Dixon's and pickup a couple pounds of Swiss whether I need it or not.
Regarding Goex's sub, it's made by American Pioneer Powder, basically it's Shocky's Gold. Your right though it does show a pattern.
I hope BP is always around. Everytime I head up to Cabelas I swing by Dixon's and pickup a couple pounds of Swiss whether I need it or not.
paulvallandigham
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If the snobs running tradition ML rifle clubs will just invite the inliners to join the club, and shoot in their shoots, the new guys will quickly learn what they are missing, and why BP works better. I should have written an artical on shooting Traditional BP firearms, too.
[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm[/url]
Perhaps then, new shooters could find a single reference that explains how to shoot a percussion or flintlock rifle or pistol.
[url] www.chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm[/url]
Perhaps then, new shooters could find a single reference that explains how to shoot a percussion or flintlock rifle or pistol.
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paulvallandigham
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Years ago, a club near ours went " primitive only ". You could not attend their shoots, or camp with them unless you had all the right stuff. A factory closed, and about half the guys in the club had to move out of the area to find work. Time and death took more of the club. The kept the " Primitive only rule", but bitched because no new people were joining. They had fogotten how long it took them to learn, and then acquire all that " stuff ". The club is gone, now.
A member of our club tried to get us to amend our by-laws to be " primitive " only. He had some support. I had met this man a year earlier- actually not quite a year earlier- when he showed up at the firing line at our club in blue jeans, carrying a card box with plastic stuff, a percussion rifle bought over the counter, a tin of caps, some balls, some patches, some cleaning solvent, and I watched him run a ball down the barrel about half way and take his ramrod out. That is when I stopped him ,and introduced myself, and then proceeded to show him how to load and fire that gun safely! He never has been a good shot, and he won't take instruction on shooting basics. what he did do was becomes a " Camper ", making his own stuff, buying used tents, and gear, and by the annual meeting the next year, he was standing there, an authority on everything, and wanting to close the club to anyone who was not dressed out in primitive dress. His motion lost. I reminded the membership where we all started, and pointed out how he came to us. I reminded them that we got new shooters every year who saw us in a demonstration, or heard about the club from some store clerk, and that by and large, everyone of us had lots of stuff in our closets at home we don't use or need, because we bought the stuff when we were new and didn't know anything.
So, a snob ML shooter is like any other snob. He wants to find a way to exclude people from his little puddle where he can be the big fish, rather than welcome new folks in, and feed them so they grow. He is the shooter who signs up to shoot against kids at Fall turkey shoots, because he knows he can beat them all, but bails when older, more epxerienced shooters sign up for the same squad to beat him, and give the top prize to the best scoring younger shooter. He's the guy who won't share his " secret loads" with anyone, and won't shoot unless he thinks he can win. And, he only hangs out with folks that think like he does, or he thinks think like he does. Like all snobs, he is small minded, and he destroys more than he contributes to our sport.
Is that clear enough? I would not think anyone who joins this forum would be that type of individual. We are all giving away " secrets " to new shooters every day, here. I much prefer to shoot with better shooters than I am, because I can learn from them, and they make me bear down and shoot better. I don't mind using my Traditional Flintlock LH rifle against guys with inlines, or percussion guns. If I am the better shot, I am going to beat them. I usually beat most of them even if I don't win. My gun club used to scre the flintlock shooters separately than the cap and ball folks. But after a couple of years of doing that, we noticed that the flintlock guys were shooting scores that were competitive to the percussion shooters, and we asked them if they wanted to compete with the percussion shooters so they could win more money. They did, so we changed our rules, and eliminated the second category. A lot of cap and ball shooters began to be interested in flinters, and within a couple of years, most of the members of the club werer shooting flint, not cap and ball.
Personally, I believe flintlocks are a superior arm to percussions and inlines, but I admit my bias. I am not worried about inline folks coming into the club and running all the rest of us off. I actually DO BELIEVE that if you expose inline shooters to traditional ML rifles, they will eventually sell that piece of fence post, and get a real gun. So, why not invite them in?
I don't disagree with Claude in keeping this forum for traditional ML shooters only. If I did, I would not be here. However, I am not going to be seduced into buying one of those things, or using substitutes because of what some ignorant sporting goods store tries to sell me. I am amused that they try, and its obvious they don't know who I am or how long I have been around MLs. You should see their faces when, after waiting for them to finish their speils, I quietly tell them that I already have a few MLs, and that I shoot flintlocks!
So, lighten up, J.D.
A member of our club tried to get us to amend our by-laws to be " primitive " only. He had some support. I had met this man a year earlier- actually not quite a year earlier- when he showed up at the firing line at our club in blue jeans, carrying a card box with plastic stuff, a percussion rifle bought over the counter, a tin of caps, some balls, some patches, some cleaning solvent, and I watched him run a ball down the barrel about half way and take his ramrod out. That is when I stopped him ,and introduced myself, and then proceeded to show him how to load and fire that gun safely! He never has been a good shot, and he won't take instruction on shooting basics. what he did do was becomes a " Camper ", making his own stuff, buying used tents, and gear, and by the annual meeting the next year, he was standing there, an authority on everything, and wanting to close the club to anyone who was not dressed out in primitive dress. His motion lost. I reminded the membership where we all started, and pointed out how he came to us. I reminded them that we got new shooters every year who saw us in a demonstration, or heard about the club from some store clerk, and that by and large, everyone of us had lots of stuff in our closets at home we don't use or need, because we bought the stuff when we were new and didn't know anything.
So, a snob ML shooter is like any other snob. He wants to find a way to exclude people from his little puddle where he can be the big fish, rather than welcome new folks in, and feed them so they grow. He is the shooter who signs up to shoot against kids at Fall turkey shoots, because he knows he can beat them all, but bails when older, more epxerienced shooters sign up for the same squad to beat him, and give the top prize to the best scoring younger shooter. He's the guy who won't share his " secret loads" with anyone, and won't shoot unless he thinks he can win. And, he only hangs out with folks that think like he does, or he thinks think like he does. Like all snobs, he is small minded, and he destroys more than he contributes to our sport.
Is that clear enough? I would not think anyone who joins this forum would be that type of individual. We are all giving away " secrets " to new shooters every day, here. I much prefer to shoot with better shooters than I am, because I can learn from them, and they make me bear down and shoot better. I don't mind using my Traditional Flintlock LH rifle against guys with inlines, or percussion guns. If I am the better shot, I am going to beat them. I usually beat most of them even if I don't win. My gun club used to scre the flintlock shooters separately than the cap and ball folks. But after a couple of years of doing that, we noticed that the flintlock guys were shooting scores that were competitive to the percussion shooters, and we asked them if they wanted to compete with the percussion shooters so they could win more money. They did, so we changed our rules, and eliminated the second category. A lot of cap and ball shooters began to be interested in flinters, and within a couple of years, most of the members of the club werer shooting flint, not cap and ball.
Personally, I believe flintlocks are a superior arm to percussions and inlines, but I admit my bias. I am not worried about inline folks coming into the club and running all the rest of us off. I actually DO BELIEVE that if you expose inline shooters to traditional ML rifles, they will eventually sell that piece of fence post, and get a real gun. So, why not invite them in?
I don't disagree with Claude in keeping this forum for traditional ML shooters only. If I did, I would not be here. However, I am not going to be seduced into buying one of those things, or using substitutes because of what some ignorant sporting goods store tries to sell me. I am amused that they try, and its obvious they don't know who I am or how long I have been around MLs. You should see their faces when, after waiting for them to finish their speils, I quietly tell them that I already have a few MLs, and that I shoot flintlocks!
So, lighten up, J.D.
So, if a person does not want to participate with, or in any other way be involved in something, he is a small minded snob? Well, I think my hat size just shrank. I am not going to go do anything that turns my stomach so someone else will be comfortable doing what is turning my stomach during my personal down time. I might do so in a job or mentor situation. I do help several modern muzzleloaders during several hunting seasons, but that is because they are family or close friends. I want absolutely nothing to do with a gathering where inlines are even allowed to be on display. I'll order a new smaller hat tomorrow!
Wow Runner that is cold and closed minded. Turns your stomach? Strong words and for the life of me what happened in your lifetime to say that.Runner said:
Paul is correct. If you invite in-line guys in I guarantee you they will purchase traditional MZ's and use them more than the in-lines at the range. They may hunt with the in-lines for a while but who cares, hunting is a solitary thing as I see it, except for maybe tag teaming a turkey.
I see the same thing in archery, it's the trad guys against the compound guys and no one wins. I have never shot a compound but just about everyone I shoot with hunts and shoots one and that's fine. But they also shoot trad gear for fun, which is great.
Hunters/Shooters need to unite, especially today being we are ALL under attack from 360 degrees. With your mentality everyone looses in the long run.
I mean no offense just telling it the way it is.
You believe how you wish. I will continue to believe as I do. I don't go to the golf course to fish. I don't get in the boat to play golf. I do go to traditional muzzleloading activities to participate in traditional muzzleloading. I do not go to traditional muzzleloading matches and gatherings looking for a modern muzzleloader shoot. If the modern shooters wish to form a club and have modern shoots, I wish them well. I simply am not interested in any way, would not lend support to the effort in any way, and would let them live their lives how they wish. I do request the same treatment for myself. No, it is not for the good of the sport I am interested in to allow modern muzzleloaders at traditional clubs and shoots.
paulvallandigham
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runner: The anti-gunners and anti=hunter love guys like you. There best technique and over all strategy calls for dividing and conquering. They have 50 and 100 year goals, my friend, and they are willing to wait for you to die, so that no one will be around that is interested in anything doing with guns, and then they can ban them all, because there will be no opposition. With men thinking like you do, they will be able to ban guns much sooner, as you would rather spend all this energy fighting other shooters, rather than take the chance that you might just be able to persuade them to swith to tradition. Did you ever consider how hard it is for anyone today to get into traditional Muzzle loading, now that no general sporting goods store carrying traditional guns in their racks any more? Thery want to hunt in the ML season, because they can under state law, and the only guns they can find to buy are these new darn things you and I both hate. I feel sorry for them, because I know they are being ripped off by the hucksters. If my BP club was stronger, I would ask the members to take turns standing out side the sporting goods store with flyers that advertised our club, and tradtional firearms, naming sources, manufacturers, and local people who could help them order the guns, caps, and powder. Its pretty hard for young people to learn what guns are available, how much they cost, which are worth the money, etc. We see that with questions on this forum all the time.
Runner, take a few minutes to breath, and pull that knot out of your boxers. We will either hang together, or surely hang separately. Our enemies are real, and they are not other shooters. Lets work to educate those other shooters, and bring them into the fold.
I know a lot of archers, who have been shooting comp0ound bows for years, who have finally had enough, and have begun shooting Traditional. They don't go back. I think the same thing will happen to those guys shooting these modern zip guns. Once they get their hands on a rifle or smoothie, and learn how to shoot them, the zip guns will be sold or traded, and they won't look back. I can think of no reason you should be calling yourself a snob. Certainly not because zip guns cause you so much personal discomfort. You are not alone. Your personal reaction is just more extreme. I never gained anything worth while from getting my blood pressure rise. And I won't give zip guns that kind of power over me. Why are you giving them that much power over your life?
Runner, take a few minutes to breath, and pull that knot out of your boxers. We will either hang together, or surely hang separately. Our enemies are real, and they are not other shooters. Lets work to educate those other shooters, and bring them into the fold.
I know a lot of archers, who have been shooting comp0ound bows for years, who have finally had enough, and have begun shooting Traditional. They don't go back. I think the same thing will happen to those guys shooting these modern zip guns. Once they get their hands on a rifle or smoothie, and learn how to shoot them, the zip guns will be sold or traded, and they won't look back. I can think of no reason you should be calling yourself a snob. Certainly not because zip guns cause you so much personal discomfort. You are not alone. Your personal reaction is just more extreme. I never gained anything worth while from getting my blood pressure rise. And I won't give zip guns that kind of power over me. Why are you giving them that much power over your life?
Well said. Most of us grew up wearing blue jeans and shooting a .22lr. I've never met anyone that grew up wearing buckskins and shooting a $5000 "Custome Flynte Lock". Somewhere along the way, a hunter or shooter sees a guy doing it the old way, and thinks, Wow, that's neat, I'd like to try that. You can't expect that new guy to cut up his in-line, spend several thousand dollars on a new gun, knife, clothes and such. To start with, he probably can't afford it if he's a younger feller like me, and secondly, if he has a family, he probably doesn't have the time to make all that gear from scratch, even if he figgers out how. Somewhere down the line, that Lil boy in blue jeans with a .22 decides to look at Primative ML. If you pop him on the nose for not showing up looking, acting like you and shooting a gun like yours, shame on you.paulvallandigham said:
You'll catch more flies with sugar than with gall. I came here not long having sold my inline. Why? The inline was boring. It looked like a "new" type of gun, not old timey. It went bang every time. No romance or mystery. I came here to learn from folks who in turn, learned much from others. In lines(I don't own one anymore, but helped a friend learn to use one just about a month ago) are here to stay. That sucks. Get used to it or do something about it. Beating up the guy who bought one to take home meat isn't the place to start. Nor is lording over them, pontificating(big word for a Carolina Redneck) and extoling the virtues of the true historical ML, the one and only holy black. If you want to win hearts, you have to lead by humble example.
Mommicked out.
:redface: :shake:Rat Trapper
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Paul,
At times our posts do not agree, but this time I have to admit I agree with you. Traditional muzzle loader shooters are currently a minority and we won't get more numbers by being hard on the new comers. Some of the guys who start out with the in-lines will come over to the traditional guns as their interest grows, and we can help that interest grow. I started with a Knight rifle, and my second TC Hawken should arrive tomorrow. So you could say my interest in this stuff as a whole has growen.
At times our posts do not agree, but this time I have to admit I agree with you. Traditional muzzle loader shooters are currently a minority and we won't get more numbers by being hard on the new comers. Some of the guys who start out with the in-lines will come over to the traditional guns as their interest grows, and we can help that interest grow. I started with a Knight rifle, and my second TC Hawken should arrive tomorrow. So you could say my interest in this stuff as a whole has growen.
It is my belief that the manufacturers have used the cry, " We must all stick together or we will hang separately", and other such quotes to keep people of good heart from protesting while they destroy the shooting sports in the name of more money. It is my belief that those shouting those slogans about everything are just doing the shill work for them. I have heard all the arguments for the modern guns, from every angle for years now. They all add up to excuses why people with good sense do not stand up and scream about the terrible damage being done to the hunting sports in the name of more money.
I may be wrong, and when I discover that I am, I am usually the first to admit it. I live by what I believe. This muzzleloader season when the 50th truck load of guys in orange with scoped so called muzzleloaders comes driving real slow down the back roads, I will not be thinking that there goes a truck load of potential converts. I will be dialing the phone, hoping they lock them all up for a couple of months and take their hunting priviledges away.
When I look at the long term big picture like you recommend, I see manufacturers and lawyers running a playbook just like an NFL team with a progressive need for product being the only thing they are interested in. Inlines, scopes, sabots, pellets, cross bows, cartridge rifles, game ears, night vision equipment, and things as yet unknown all in the name of money.
I am not fighting against anyone, but I do pick who I hang with because of my own interests. I see nothing stopping the modern crowd from doing the same. I like a lot of the people that use the guns, and I help when I am around them. I just prefer to not even see the modern guns. I have even less interest in cartridge guns these days. I don't want to see them at a shoot either. If the modern folks want what the rest of us have, then they need to form a club of their own, not take over existing ones. Let them find the places and do the work to make a club. Heck, I might help out such a local club sometimes with whatever I could do. When I go to my places, I go there because the others are not there. I draw the line right there. When they try to take away my right to go enjoy myself the same way they want to.
Try to go to a nice restuarant in bikini swim clothing and no shoes. There are minimum entry standards all thru our society. Minimum entry of no modern muzzleloaders is pretty easy to live with if they are interested, IMHO.
It is nice to have a civil discussion about the topic!
I may be wrong, and when I discover that I am, I am usually the first to admit it. I live by what I believe. This muzzleloader season when the 50th truck load of guys in orange with scoped so called muzzleloaders comes driving real slow down the back roads, I will not be thinking that there goes a truck load of potential converts. I will be dialing the phone, hoping they lock them all up for a couple of months and take their hunting priviledges away.
When I look at the long term big picture like you recommend, I see manufacturers and lawyers running a playbook just like an NFL team with a progressive need for product being the only thing they are interested in. Inlines, scopes, sabots, pellets, cross bows, cartridge rifles, game ears, night vision equipment, and things as yet unknown all in the name of money.
I am not fighting against anyone, but I do pick who I hang with because of my own interests. I see nothing stopping the modern crowd from doing the same. I like a lot of the people that use the guns, and I help when I am around them. I just prefer to not even see the modern guns. I have even less interest in cartridge guns these days. I don't want to see them at a shoot either. If the modern folks want what the rest of us have, then they need to form a club of their own, not take over existing ones. Let them find the places and do the work to make a club. Heck, I might help out such a local club sometimes with whatever I could do. When I go to my places, I go there because the others are not there. I draw the line right there. When they try to take away my right to go enjoy myself the same way they want to.
Try to go to a nice restuarant in bikini swim clothing and no shoes. There are minimum entry standards all thru our society. Minimum entry of no modern muzzleloaders is pretty easy to live with if they are interested, IMHO.
It is nice to have a civil discussion about the topic!
Runner,
I belong to a gun club that is mainly high-power competition shooters. With my flintlocks I was the guy they would hide in a closet once the real shooters started showing up.
One day I had the .45 caliber Schimmel at the range. One of the AR-15 high-power guys walks over. So I let him bang out a few rounds with the flinter. A month later he is here at the house going through my books on building longrifles. By the end of the week he had dumped some money at Dixons on parts to build one. After shooting the one he built he bought parts to make a more fancy one.
One day at the club I was shooting with a buddy from out of state. Shooting my .45 caliber Schimmel flinter. Some guy and his wife showed up with two brand new Knight (NO RELATION!!!!!) in-lines. With the flinter we could hammer out two shots for every round fired out of the in-line. I had always figure a flintlock being the slowest rate of fire possible. Alongside that Knight (NO RELATION !!!!!) in-line my flinter looked like a rapid fire weapon!
The story to that evening is a riot. I still laugh 6 years later.
I belong to a gun club that is mainly high-power competition shooters. With my flintlocks I was the guy they would hide in a closet once the real shooters started showing up.
One day I had the .45 caliber Schimmel at the range. One of the AR-15 high-power guys walks over. So I let him bang out a few rounds with the flinter. A month later he is here at the house going through my books on building longrifles. By the end of the week he had dumped some money at Dixons on parts to build one. After shooting the one he built he bought parts to make a more fancy one.
One day at the club I was shooting with a buddy from out of state. Shooting my .45 caliber Schimmel flinter. Some guy and his wife showed up with two brand new Knight (NO RELATION!!!!!) in-lines. With the flinter we could hammer out two shots for every round fired out of the in-line. I had always figure a flintlock being the slowest rate of fire possible. Alongside that Knight (NO RELATION !!!!!) in-line my flinter looked like a rapid fire weapon!
The story to that evening is a riot. I still laugh 6 years later.
