Which Brown Bess?

[Col. Batguano]

Dave's thread has been mentioned several times. Within it, he mentions that, while the Pedersoli is a good starting point to make a MORE accurate recreation of a Bess, it is, at best, a compromise product when done. There is not enough wood, and several of the parts are wrong (the BP drop at the toe is too short for instance).

He says, that if making it for himself, he would start out with a blank (presumably English Walnut) and make it himself with the proper parts. That way he would know it will come out "correct". TotW has a parts set you can start with, but I don't know how "right" the parts are within it. I know their stocks are American walnut though, so that's one thing you may wish to change if you're going the build route.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I'm not going the build route. I have neither the time, tools, or inclination to do a build. I don't build my modern guns, don't see why black powder people are always urged to build theirs.

 

[robinghewitt]

Was that price with or without VAT? Also, what Pattern Model is your Brown Bess?

It was pushed in to my hands at a shoot, cash sale, no receipts or any of that. I bought it because it ticked a box in my collection. I don't know anything about it, I just shoot it, usually clays :thumbsup:

 

[Col. Batguano]

The reasons people get in to building are as varied as the individuals, but the main one is; "because they want to". After that, it gets more personal.

But generally with these military arms, they build them because originals in shooting condition are far too scarce, valuable, (or of questionable integrity) to shoot safely or wisely. Those (commercial companies) that make reproductions of those (military) guns tend to not be making arms that are "correct" creations when viewed side by side with the originals. The only way to get a "correct" one is to either build it yourself, or contact a custom builder to have THEM make it for you. Of course, if you can live with the variations from the originals that the current manufacturers do, then by all means go with one of them. It really all depends on what is the most important to you.

When you are getting in to AWI period, and Golden Age stuff then you are dealing with arms that were made (in the period) in smallish one-off type of shops, and they were all hand made, one at a time. Very few of them were done the same way time and again (with a few exceptions, like John Armstrong). Parts tended to not be standardized, so they generally do not interchange without modification to them. In those days, the focus was on having a functioning firearm, with a little art on it. These days (for many) the focus is on the art to be attached to a functioning firearm.

A lot of recreational builders just like to tinker with mechanical stuff, and are comfortable working with wood and metal. The carving and engraving aspects let them express themselves creatively, and when they are done, have a family heirloom piece of which they are justifiably proud. For many, just making one is not enough. (And you really can't ever have enough guns.) They seek to improve themselves through subsequent builds. Most builders start out with a rather plain and unadorned gun, built from a kit or pre-carved parts set, and then move on to greater personal challenges, adding things like building from a blank, carving, engraving etc. By the time they're on their 5th -10th gun, most have gotten pretty good at what they do, and some even move in to the contract build "business", though when they do the math on their wages, and on a "per hour basis", they really don't make much more than minimum wage at it.

So that brings it around full circle. Most builders are builders because they want to, and they want to make something that they themselves are happy to say "I built that".

 

[NC Highlander]

I've shot both Indian and Pedersoli. Shoot, I've held an original in my hands before. While the Pedersoli is pretty good quality, I wouldn't say all Indian guns are bad. I got mine from Loyalist. It needed some finishing work (I still need to retouch the stock) and had to shave the main spring a bit, but for the price I couldn't beat it. I'm a college student, I can't afford spending a grand on a gun right now on top of everything else. All I need it for is reenacting at the moment.

I'd love to build my own gun, but I don't have the expertise nor the time to learn right now.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

That's very, very cool and I have the utmost respect for black powder builders of which there is no shortage!

But for me, working on a GI budget, bouncing around apartments and states, with a full time job and social life, trying to start a family, building just does not work for me. I've tried it, I don't enjoy it, it hasn't saved me any money, and I really don't understand why it's almost expected for black powder shooters to be builders.

I'll let a professional do that for me. I'd rather just shoot the things, and enjoy them without building them.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I've shot both Indian and Pedersoli. Shoot, I've held an original in my hands before. While the Pedersoli is pretty good quality, I wouldn't say all Indian guns are bad. I got mine from Loyalist. It needed some finishing work (I still need to retouch the stock) and had to shave the main spring a bit, but for the price I couldn't beat it. I'm a college student, I can't afford spending a grand on a gun right now on top of everything else. All I need it for is reenacting at the moment.

I'd love to build my own gun, but I don't have the expertise nor the time to learn right now.

Nice. I have heard Loyalist Arms has some surprisingly good muskets made for them. If I go Indian, I'll probably go that route.

 

[azmntman]

I'll let a professional do that for me. I'd rather just shoot the things, and enjoy them without building them.

:metoo:

If I go Indian, I'll probably go that route.
[/quote]


DON'T, just DON'T If you get the urge just call HP tech support with some silly question and then just DON'T :shake:

 

[Col. Batguano]

You've got that part figured out. A lot of people get lured in to building thinking they're going to save money. They don't. Sure, the cost of the parts plus the consumables is less than a finished gun. Even valuing your labor at $0 per hour you don't save anything. There are the hidden costs, like all the tools that you wind up buying, and the tools to service the tools. I bet if I add up my stuff, it's something like $2000 worth of tools I've bought that get used in gun making. And then there are the research materials too. Books aren't cheap. And the more you have, the more you wind up getting. Pretty soon you have $500+ in reference materials too, to say nothing of the trips to the store. But, what you WILL get from gun making, that you really don't get from buying one, is a much deeper appreciation for the history, and techniques used in making them.

An investment in your own education is always a worthwhile one.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

So you think I should build one anyway?

 

[spudnut]

Indian guns are OK Ive had a few that were just fine.Ive had custom that were buggers

 

[Artificer]

Back when I bought my first Pedersoli Brown Bess, which was the Carbine model in the 1970's, I wanted it much more for shooting in Northwest Trade Gun competition and other matches rather than for reenacting, but I did do a little reenacting with it. The trigger pull was heavy, but manageable. I had not yet learned how to do "trigger jobs" on flintlocks, though I was doing them on Civil War Period Musket locks and it took me a while to figure out one does the trigger job the same way. Back then, there wasn't an Internet or anything I could find in print on doing a trigger job on a Brown Bess lock, though. There were no India made Brown Bess's back then, either.

I bought mine when I was a young Sergeant in the Marine Corps and also did not have much money to spend, as I was also saving to get married and would need to pay for my wife's last couple of years in college as she finished. I earned some extra money by doing some odd jobs when I could, to buy the Bess. I can't say for sure if I would have bought the Pedersoli over an India made gun had the India Gun been available, but I am pretty sure I would have bought the Pedersoili because I wanted the better quality for shooting both round balls and shot.

Years later when I got into reenacting very heavily and not as much shooting, I needed the full length Bess, instead of the Carbine Model. I did have a choice between a Pedersoli and a Miroku/Jap Bess and by this time I knew how to do a trigger job on the lock. Even though the Pedersoli was a bit more expensive than the Miroku, there just was not the quality in the Miroku that I had seen in the Pedersoli from years of shooting matches. So I quickly rejected the Miroku and would more than likely have rejected the India made guns, as they are not as good as the Miroku.

I never regretted my decision of "biting the bullet" by paying more for the Pedersoli in either case.

Gus

 

[Col. Batguano]

As per my prior 2 posts, you should build a gun if you WANT to. What I'd hate to see happen, is a project that gets started, but not finished. There are more of those around than you know about. They get sold at garage sales for pennies on the dollar.

Just be aware of the time and monetary commitment you're setting yourself up for when you decide to do it, that's all. A project that takes you over 2 years to build is probably one that should have been deferred until you were better able to concentrate the time needed to do it. If you are able to budget 2-4 hours+ a week, or 10 hours a month, then you have the time to do a build. More than that you'll get it done that much more quickly. Less than that and you'll have to spend a fair amount of time re-learning skills (such as inletting) that you had previously gained some familiarity with.

When I started my first build, I first bought a couple of books to try to understand that. It took me about a year of doing the research and reading (and taking good honest stock of my own time, motivation, and resources available) before I had the courage to jump in to it.

 

[ricwb]

Building a Bess does not have to be a major task. If you can find a Pedersoli Brown Bess kit from one of the major muzzleloading suppliers, the build is not difficult. Mostly finishing the stock (sanding some - no inletting) and polishing the brass bits. You don't save alot of money, but you get the feeling that the finished product is something you did.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Building a Bess does not have to be a major task. If you can find a Pedersoli Brown Bess kit from one of the major muzzleloading suppliers, the build is not difficult. Mostly finishing the stock (sanding some - no inletting) and polishing the brass bits. You don't save alot of money, but you get the feeling that the finished product is something you did.

Well....yes and no. :hmm: My Navy Arms (Ped. ca: 1970) kit needed the inlays done. The double compound curves for the buttplate were difficult. A lot (LOT) of wood can be taken off with rasping and sanding to improve the overall appearance and balance of the gun. Not the easiest kit ever but also not the hardest to assemble.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It depends on whether or not they are drilling the holes for all the pins. I just built a vintage Jap Bess kit for a reenactor, and all the holes were left undone when the kit was unboxed.

Luckily I had a Pedersoli Bess from a friend to borrow to get some idea of the locations on the stock, and then used some hand gimbles to make starter holes, followed by larger, finishing holes. Plus the brass was all still rough machined, and I had to finish that, but THAT was a cool experience.

LD

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

I bought a very used Pedersoli Brown Bess for about 50% off new on this forum about a decade ago, and I've carried it all over the place. I've studied a lot of original Besses as well, and come to the conclusion...I don't care about the differences.

What matters to me is to be out in the forest or the desert or the mountains or the plains, hiking with that musket, hunting or just wandering smelling the leaves and the wind and the earth in the way of our ancestors. For that, the Pedersoli Bess is superb. In my opinion, the best way to understand the Bess and its history is plenty of shooting and plenty of adventures. Others may find their understanding in carving wood and bending metal. I'm of the sort who can't waste a sunrise.

Tempus fugit. Get out there and savor the smell of powder smoke. For that the Pedersoli Bess is made to order. Enjoy.

 

[Artificer]

Even though I had shot a Brown Bess in competition in the 70's, worked large military locks for years and had been the Team Armourer to the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team for two World Championships in '96 and '98; I ran into some things during reenacting that I had never run into before with these muskets.

One of the strangest things to me at the time was the number of folks who "lost" their priming powder before it was time to fire the blank rounds. I had never run into that before with my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine when I competed. The problem was we were doing loading and firing "by the manual of arms." So first thing we did was prime and shut the pan. OK, no problem there. THEN we "smartly" did "Cast About," which is quickly turning the musket and dropping the butt softly on the ground to load the rest of the blank cartridge. Took me a while to figure out the problem.

What was happening during this quick "Cast About" movement was the priming powder was being thrown out of the pan because the bottom of the Steel/Frizzen did not closely fit over the top of the pan. The problem was very much more common in the Jap Besses than the Pedersoli's. Actually, I was surprised at the open space gap between these parts on some muskets that allowed the priming powder to be "thrown out" of the pan.

Some of the Steels/Frizzens were also soft or the flint had scraped through the surface hardness and these parts would no longer throw a spark. If the Steel/Frizzen had to be re-hardened, then that job had to come first as the Steel/Frizzen would warp slightly during the heat treating.

Then I used Emory Cloth (sand paper for metal) wrapped around a flat file to flatten the bottom of the Steel/Frizzen. I found I could file the top of the pan with a smooth file. I put Dykem layout dye on the pan and tapped the Steel/Frizzen down onto the pan to show where it was contacting. They used candle black in the period for this. Then I adjusted the angle of my filing on top of the pan so it matched the bottom of the Steel/Frizzen closely. I actually went a little more than necessary in fitting these parts so that almost no light could be seen between them, as was done on High Dollar Fowling Pieces of the period, but it ensured the powder would never be thrown out of the pan again during "Cast About."

I found it much more common to be necessary to clear some areas in the lock inletting on Jap Besses so the parts could operate correctly. This is not a big deal, but you have to know where the parts are hitting and especially the tail of the sear, so it doesn't contact the wood in operation.

I wish I had known Dave Person back then, as his GREAT thread on this forum aboiut reworking a Pedersoli showed me something I did not know about adjusting the "tip over point" of the frizzen.

I also tried different thicknesses of leather wraps and flints to get most of our muskets sparking consistently.

Finally one of our members offered to donate a Jap Bess to the Unit as a "loaner gun" IF I could/would fix it. This gun had driven him nuts trying to get it to operate correctly and he had taken it apart a few years earlier, but couldn't figure out the problems and left it in pieces. By the time I got the package of pieces/parts, he had lost a couple of parts as well.

Now every factory that makes things occasionally has a Real Lemon that gets out of the factory and this Jap Bess was a Lemon of Lemons. I had to re-harden and temper the Steel/Frizzen, free up some lock parts by judicious stoning and filing, take some metal off the half **** notch, and fit the Steel/Frizzen to the pan. Also filed the inside of the lock to fit against the barrel correctly. Had to take a wax casting of a Top Jaw and make a new Top Jaw to replace the one he had lost. Had to make a couple of pins he had lost.

OK, at this point I got it reassembled and found the tail of the sear and other parts were rubbing where they should not, so I got those cleared. However, when I got all those things done that SHOULD have corrected the problems, it would still occasionally and mysteriously sometimes allow the nose of the sear to hit the half **** and catch on it. I put it down for a few hours and came back and it took me over an hour to figure out what the problem was.

What I did not know at the time was when a musket was sent to Miroku to copy, the trigger guard bow got squashed a little bit in transit. They were told to make an exact as possible copy, so they included this "squashing" of the trigger guard bow. At least that is how I heard it.

Anyway, I finally spotted a Teensy Tiny little wear point on the inside of the trigger guard bow that should not have been there. What happened was the trigger would sometimes catch there and not go far enough back to raise the tail of the sear high enough so the nose of the sear would clear the half **** notch. OK, so the quick fix was to shorten the trigger a little bit and round the edges. When that was done, the Musket finally worked perfectly.

I wanted to mention this last problem because it is possible other Jap Besses with the "squashed" trigger guard bows could have this problem as well and most folks might never think what the problem could be, to fix it.

Gus

 

[Leatherbark]

I bought a very used Pedersoli Brown Bess for about 50% off new on this forum about a decade ago, and I've carried it all over the place. I've studied a lot of original Besses as well, and come to the conclusion...I don't care about the differences.

What matters to me is to be out in the forest or the desert or the mountains or the plains, hiking with that musket, hunting or just wandering smelling the leaves and the wind and the earth in the way of our ancestors. For that, the Pedersoli Bess is superb. In my opinion, the best way to understand the Bess and its history is plenty of shooting and plenty of adventures. Others may find their understanding in carving wood and bending metal. I'm of the sort who can't waste a sunrise.

Tempus fugit. Get out there and savor the smell of powder smoke. For that the Pedersoli Bess is made to order. Enjoy.

What this guy said! Well said.

Bob