Whitmore, Duff, Wolff & Co.

[Davey Boy]

Well after doing a search for "breach plug" and reading many of the posts, I have decided to get me a bore scope that works. I can begin inspection of the bore. I will use the bore scope to identify how well I am doing removing the cleaning patch and all the broken stuff I have added to it.

From the posts I read, the barrel really should have a machined fixture to hold the barrel. Care to preserve the finish. A proper wrench for removing the breach plug.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You might get some more results by searching for "breech plug".

 

[Davey Boy]

You might get some more results by searching for "breech plug".

 

[Grenadier1758]

Don't feel bad. Its a very common misspelling.

 

[Davey Boy]

I have been looking for a bore scope that can reach to the breech plug and be in focus at 39" from the end of the barrel (ID is 0.4"). That's quite a requirement for the ones I have seen so far. In the meantime I will pass on removing the breech plug as I am concerned I may damage the finish on the barrel squeezing it hard.

So I used a 4 foot length of 6061 aluminum rod 0.375" diameter and made a cutter removal tool to go fishing for the patch holder and cloth cleaning patch.

My idea was to cut a slot in the end. Then drill a deep hole pocket on center. Then file a back rake to the teeth.





First trip down the bore yielded the patch holder tip



I tried to grind through the patch and just got little pieces. Next is to modify the cutter to one tooth and file a hook into it.

 

[Davey Boy]

The next thing was not modifying the cutter to one tooth. It was getting a borescope that I could run down the bore and have a look see.



That picture isn't much but I see the color of the pillow ticking I tried to use for cleaning, red and white. The black center is what is left of the plastic cleaning tip. The shiny glitter I expect is from the aluminum rubbed off from the cutter tip.

I have a collection of cleaning rods and tips but nothing matches up. I want to make a patch puller but I don't know how to make it, yet. So for now I will try a screw type ball puller threaded to 10-32. Perhaps it can snag the cloth to get it out of there.

 

[Davey Boy]

The screw type ball puller worked to remove the rest of the stuck patch. I still couldn't get air or liquid from the barrel bore through the nipple.

I removed the barrel from the stock. I heated the percussion cap drum just warm. It had already been soaking for two days with iodine. It unscrewed slick as a whistle.



The drum was loaded with bits of the patch material and dirt, it was really packed in. I used different size drills and dental picks to pull stuff out of it. The final cleaning was Windex in the ultrasonic cleaner. Looked good under the microscope. I did not remove the nipple, it looked like it was part of the drum and didn't want to move easily so I left it be.



The thread diameter that screws into the rifle barrel measured 0.342" with 14 threads per inch. Looks pretty handmade to me.

I cleaned the threaded hole and end of the breech plug with Windex, Q-Tips, and dental picks. Looked good to me.

I am going the give the bore a good scrubbing, inspect with bore scope camera, and measure rate of twist.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Sounds to me like you are on your way too a shooter nice old rifle, keep us informed on the progress. Interesting the different cleaning solvents involved.

 

[Davey Boy]

Cleaning the bore

Squirt in Fluid Film

Wire brush on cleaning rod, endless cycles

Swab until dry, so far always dirty

Repeat (lost count)

Oh, measure rate of twist, 1 turn in 44"

 

[Davey Boy]

Before I removed the nipple drum, I scored the location on the underside covered by the stock when assembled.



After cleaning - Picture a bit fuzzy, sorry - the nipple drum tightened past the score line. Not acceptable. The nipple must be in proper alignment with the face of the hammer to strike the nipple correctly.



The high spot of the barrel indicates where the nipple drum was making contact when in the correct position. From what I have seen of methods in building and repairing muzzleloaders, the trick is to deform the metal for fit. I can make a new nipple drum no sweat, but I am not set up for barrel work.



I picked the spot on the nipple drum where it would meet the nice flat of the barrel hole perimeter. I peened it with a small ballpeen hammer with the nipple drum supported on a piece of hardwood which was clamped tight in a machinist vice. I did this several times and tested fit and rotation location until it aligned with the scribed score marks.

Tightened sufficiently and satisfied it was good I backed it out for final assembly.





I put 271 on the nipple drum threads and tightened to the score line.



Alignment to hammer was perfect. I let it set 2 hours.



I am going to let this set and get a good cure on the 271 for perhaps a week.

 

[Ajgall]

Great progress so far. I look forward to seeing how it ends up.

 

[Davey Boy]

Ramrod pipe entry when the ramrod is removed hinges at the pin and the pipe moves. The arrows show the pin location for holding the pipe in place. The green circle shows the end that pivots away from the stock.



Before installing the barrel, I noticed that folded paper was used to press against the pipe forcing the pipe to lay flat into the stock. I cut a match stick the same length and just laid it on top of the paper, dropped the barrel in place, squeezed the barrel by hand into the stock. Pipe looked good so I mounted the barrel to the stock. The pin location where the pipe was held in place is located in the area where the pipe metal meets the red outlined paper section.

 

[sawyer04]

You are doing a good job, patience will pay off and the prize you have is something to behold.

 

[smoothshooter]

Well I stuck a cleaning rag and cleaning rod tip in the barrel.

Tried using the brand new can of Ballistol and let some soak in the bore.

I thought I would blow it out with compressed air. No, that was a complete failure. So, tried a worm. Fail.

My hands were so greasy dirty I couldn't get them clean. Had to get the sugar out, added liquid dish detergent, that cleaned my hands good.

Done for the day.

Next up

May as well take the barrel out, soak the plug end from the bore with iodine, remove the cap chamber thing, remove the plug from the barrel. Drive out the jam.

Measure rate of twist and inspect the bore.

What is the purpose of the iodine? Penetrant dye? How well does it work? Will it cause rust if left on a steel or iron surface too long?

Also, about the sugar and soap thing-what part does the sugar play in cleaning your hands? What ratio?

 

[Davey Boy]

When I was younger and my Dad got me interested in antique autos, I started finding old books on them. One book was a mechanics guide to automobiles dated around 1915. I read it cover to cover and there was a section on repairing stuck valves from the engine overheating. It said to use iodine to unstick the valves. We had a 6 cylinder engine in the cellar for my 1935 Plymouth coupe that we were tearing down. The valves were stuck so hard Dad couldn't budge them with an oak block and big hammer. I poured iodine around each valve and the next day Dad went down cellar and each valve was removed with two fingers. Dad was astonished. When I get something that is really stuck, I get out the iodine. I also use it on minor cuts. I don't know if it causes rust if left, but if you put iodine on your skin it goes through it like sound through fog. The other trick for stuck threads as any mechanic knows is to slightly tighten to get the threads to break free then loosen. That works most of the time. Smitty taught me that when I was in Groton, Connecticut working for General Dynamics Electric Boat Division. He was a Master Mechanic and the only one allowed to make up the bulk head through hull glands for electrical cable. He was and artist in his trade, OSE - Outside Electrician.

When your hands get dirty from grease and soap won't touch it, use a little soap and about a table spoon of sugar, a dash of water. Rub the soap and sugar like a surgeon getting ready for the operating room. Then rinse your hands. Yours hands will be clean and the skin will be soft. You can repeat it if you need to. My truck broke down at the gas station out of state on some remote exit to a single gas station. Just filled it and it wouldn't start. Nothing for miles. I borrowed some tools that weren't much more than pliers and a few screwdrivers. I rebuilt the starter and put it back. Still got the truck and that old starter lasted for years. My hands were just black and grease clear to my elbows. I grabbed some free sugar packets at the coffee section in the convenience store and went in to the bathroom, mixed the sugar with some liquid soap. I cleaned up fit for a wedding.

 

[Ranger94]

This could be one of my all time favorite reads!! Thanks so much. The details are fascinating.

 

[Davey Boy]

The rifle is ready to take to the range. But I need a range rod. I want it to have interchangeable tips and a removable T handle. When the ball is seated it needs to have a mark on the rod indicating correct ball seating. This rifle is 40 caliber and I have been using a 3/8" aluminum rod for patch retrieval. The cleaning kits I have are a jumble of rod sizes with tips of every thread description.

My first consideration is a JAG tip for cleaning. I am not finding much information on JAG bore diameter measurements, design of the JAG to properly hold a patch, and thread size for 40 cal ramrod tips.

So first a drawing and dimensions. Ramrod size will be 3/8" (0.375). Close fit dimension for an 8-32 is 0.136" , 10-32 is 0.196", 1/4-20 is 0.257"

Visual representation looks good for any of those. Doing the math a 1/4 - 20 yields a wall thickness of .0509" which is a bit too little for me. I do like the 10-32 with a wall thickness of 0.0895". Round up 0.0895" to 0.090" and that's got some size to it.

If I tap the aluminum ramrod 10-32 it will in time with tip changes wear the tapped threads. I am using 6061 aluminum because that's what I have.

The tips can be made in brass and I have plenty of it. If I use stainless steel Helicoils from McMaster Carr 91732A725, they will be 0.038" long. That's about 14 threads of 10-32. Strength, stays straight with no wobble, wear will be minimal, I like it.



Store bought JAGs have the stud in them, I want to put the stud in the ramrod for strength. I would put the Helicoils in the Jag because the brass has better strength than the aluminum. If I have to yank on the ramrod I want my ramrod tips to come along with no issues.

From what I have seen of JAGs so far, there are many different designs and people still loose cleaning patches.


I am going to do a little research in JAG design. I have a glass thick wall tube and I plan to make up some JAGs of different diameters referenced to the inside diameter of the glass.

The patch will be a specific type of cloth and there will be variables in the cloth such as; washed or unwashed, pounded (mashed) or not, lubricated or not, different lubes tried.

The tube ID is 0.625" so patch sizes will be tried in size and shape.

The force required to drive the patch in and retract may become necessary to measure too.

I can take photos of how the patch is doing in each test.

Eventually the glass inside diameter will have to be set up to represent fouling.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, your WAY overthinking this ramrod/jag thing.

I recommend buying a .40 caliber brass jag with a steel #10-32 stud installed in it. Do not get the all brass jag with brass threads. The jags with the steel threads are far superior.

Your 6061 Aluminum rod is probably in a T6 condition and as such it has a tensile strength of 43,000 psi and a yield strength of 35,000 psi.
With a #10 thread in it the aluminum will withstand a pulling force of over 600 pounds force before it begins to yield.

 

[Griz44Mag]

The rifle is ready to take to the range. But I need a range rod. I want it to have interchangeable tips and a removable T handle. When the ball is seated it needs to have a mark on the rod indicating correct ball seating. This rifle is 40 caliber and I have been using a 3/8" aluminum rod for patch retrieval. The cleaning kits I have are a jumble of rod sizes with tips of every thread description.

WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!
I am assuming you have already been diagnosed as severe OCD...................
Sit back, grab a cold drink and take a deep breath................
It's a moving target - every shot will change the barrel conditions, this ain't a Swiss watch............... using "precision" measurements is not going to work.....
Make life a lot less stressful, just buy a T handle brass rod from October Country or Track of the Wolf with a muzzle protector, and buy the appropriate jags you need.
Only one caution - get the jags as you show in your post with the steel threads. The jags with the brass threads are known to be weak and I have heard of the thread stripping or breaking off on them. While you are buying, get a patch worm and a ball puller with a collar.
You WILL lose a patch every once in a while, it's just a 20 second fish with a worm to get it out, it's not anything major.....
I have even sent a wadded up patch down a barrel to mop up a breech face, then used a worm to retrieve it.
And you WILL have a stuck ball sooner or later - still not a big deal, just pull it......
And relax...!!!!

 

[Davey Boy]

These replies by Zonie and Griz44Mag is why I enjoy this Forum. I am here to learn, have fun, and be safe doing it.

I go into detail perhaps a bit much and it pleases me that folks read it and comment.

Anyway, I still want to make my own JAG, because I have the materials and tools.

No on the Helicoils and I will go with 10-32



Dave