Whitworth Barrel -Rust Mystery

[JasonUK]

I own a Parker-Hale Whitworth Rifle and frequently shoot it. It's a lovely rifle and I am obsessed with keeping the barrel clean, as I do all of my rifles. Cleaning takes me around 2 hours after a session and I like to think the rifle goes to bed happy.

Something does tend to happen in the barrel of this rifle which does not happen in any of my others. Within 48 hours rust starts to develop in the barrel So I have to clean it again and 2 days later repeat again. No more rusting appears after this.

My cleaning procedure does involve the use of boiling water:

1.I fill the barrel from the kettle, leave for a minute and pour away.

2. Repeat.

3. Pour in up to 1/3rd of a barrel with boiling water. Scrub barrel with bronze brush heavily oiled.

4. Pour away water. Refill barrel with boiling water.

5. Pour away.

6. Much rodding with dry patches until patches are clean

7. Remove and clean nipple, lock etc.

8. Use ex-girlfriend's Hair-dryer aimed down the barrel to remove all possiblity of water remaining (surely it must - that barrel gets so hot!)

9. Also use hair-dryer in nipple area to remove any water traces from flash vent.

10. Rod oiled patches down barrel - not sparing the oil.

The big question for me is - what is causing the rust to appear within 48 hours? Am I doing something wrong? :idunno: Where is the water which is causing the rusting?

Any help to solve this mystery would be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Rogue River]

I discovered if I use hot water to clean I have to clean again in 2/3 days. Now I use cold water and I don't have that problem. The last thing I do before I oil the barrel is pour a little alcohol down the barrel, swish it around and then dump, a couple dry patches and then oil. The alcohol will evaporate and take any moisture with it!

 

[jtmattison]

I think if you change from boiling water to warm or cool water your problem will go away.

I clean and rinse with warm water then blow the remaining water out with my air compressor. I follow with a couple dry patches then spray oil down the bore until it comes out the vent. Then I blow the excess oil out and follow with one heavily oiled patch.

I have never had any rust.

HD

 

[William O.]

Possibly when the barrel cools down from being hot it is drawing the humidity out of the air (condensation), but out of curiosity, what kind of oil are you using?

 

[bwhoffman]

i use cold to wildly warm water and no more rust!
I also use alcohol and oil liberaly.

 

[zrifleman]

You did not say what kind of powder you are using? Are you by chance using Pyrodex or some other BP substitute?

 

[JasonUK]

Hi Bull, I have been using Napier Gun Oil.

 

[JasonUK]

Hi Zrifleman, I only ever use black powder, Swiss No.3 is my favourite for this rifle.

 

[Toomuch_36]

My best results, after much trial and error, tend to shadow what "Huntin' Dawg" said.

1: clean with cold water. (IMO cleans better)
2: Rinse with very hot water, (till water temp heats barrel).
3: Wipe dry and oil liberaly (while barrel is still hot).

This procedure works well for me, I have no rusting problems, and it takes about 15min.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint

 

[William O.]

Hi Bull, I have been using Napier Gun Oil.

I'm not familiar with that type oil. If Napier is specifically a rust preventative then stick with it. You might try another gun oil if available to you, Remington Oil comes to mind, but many folks swear by Ballistol as well.

Try going to warm water as the others have suggested, I think that's your best bet right away. Good luck, I hope it helps.

 

[longcruise]

I'm of the opinion that the boiling water ends up in the pores of the steel and promotes minor rusting.

You might also find that it is not taking 48 hours for this rust to form. Next time you clean with this method, before you oil the barrel let it sit "dry" for about 20 minutes and then run a dry patch down the bore. Am 99.95% sure it will come out rust red.

 

[TFoley]

My best results, after much trial and error, tend to shadow what "Huntin' Dawg" said.

1: clean with cold water. (IMO cleans better)
2: Rinse with very hot water, (till water temp heats barrel).
3: Wipe dry and oil liberaly (while barrel is still hot).

This procedure works well for me, I have no rusting problems, and it takes about 15min.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint

This is about the same as my procedure, too. My P-H Whitworth is #888, BTW, bought new by me in 1986.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[JasonUK]

Hi Tac, I think our Parker-Hale Whitworth's were probably made in the P-H workshop in Birmingham in the same afternoon shift! Mine is #885 ! I bought mine second hand in 2003 though. One of those purchases where I saw it by chance in the shop - walked home- thought about it for an hour - ran back to the shop and placed a deposit on it before anyone else did!

Regards,

Jason

 

[TFoley]

Mine was bought after a confrontation with Roger Hale. After having one on back order for three years I was getting truly peeved at being told that 90% were going elsewhere and I'd have to be patient. I collared Mr H at a BA equipment show at Aldershot with a VERY loud voice and asked him when I could expect my rifle that I'd had ordered etc.... In his embarrassment he promised me the first of the next batch and with the darkest colour wood he could find, after I complained about the cafe au lait colour of my other P-H guns. Three weeks later Ron May called me up to say that he'd had a personal delivery from Golden Hillock Road, and would I please go get it.

I still have it, as you can see.

You MUST tell us what you shoot in it, and how.

Best

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[William O.]

Hi Bull, I have been using Napier Gun Oil.

Hi Jason, I looked up Napier gun oil and it seems to be real good stuff, I don't think you should use anything else. I am going to echo the previous suggestions then, going to warm or cold water, letting the barrel sit to dry for 20 minutes followed by a generously oiled cleaning patch down the bore, but I'm also going to add that you use and alcohol soaked cleaning patch while at the range. Whenever you swab the bore just use the alcohol patch. Hope this helps and let us know what happens.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Are you using any detergent in that water that you pour into the barrel, or on the cleaning patches you run down the barrel? If you don't remove the carbon deposits that get into the pores of the barrel, you risk the carbon drawing moisture, and that would be the source of the new rust.

What kind of product are you putting in the barrel after cleaning to protect the barrel from exposure to moist air?

Use a vegetable oil, or Ballistol, which is a refined mineral oil with additives to remove mercury isotopes from barrels. I don't recommend using any Petroleum based oils, because you have to clean them out with alcohol before you can shoot the gun the next time out. However, any motor oil is better than using nothing at all to protect the steel in the bore from moisture. There are lots of gun oils out there that work. Use what you have. Among the new products, Birchwood Casey's "Sheath" Is being recommend for longer term storage, here on the forums. I am still using Young Country 101 lube, a combination of wax and vegetable oil to protect both the inside and outside of my barrels. So far, I have had no problems with rust.

Remember that a barrel on an original rifle is likely to be made mostly from iron, and is not made from the kind of "steels" that are made today, no matter what it says on the barrel. Its usually a lot more susceptible to rusting, than modern steel barrels are.

 

[longcruise]

Remember that a barrel on an original rifle is likely to be made mostly from iron, and is not made from the kind of "steels" that are made today, no matter what it says on the barrel. Its usually a lot more susceptible to rusting, than modern steel barrels are.

I've always been under the impression that the old iron barrels were less likely to rust than modern steel. Supposedly has to do with the carbon content of modern steel, whereas true old timey iron had little or no carbon.

Maybe some of metallurgical experts can clear it up for us.

 

[JasonUK]

Hello Tac, In answer to your question in my Whitworth I shoot an 85 grain load of Swiss No.3 followed by a felt wad then a card hex wad. A paper patched bullet made from a Charles Higginbottom Mould sits on top. The bullets turn out at around 560grains. I have been using 10% tin mixed with the lead but I think I will reduce that to around 3% having read discovered the mix which some of the best GB shots use at long distance.

I load powder first then seat the 2 wads then clean the barrel with wet patch (Birchwood Casey BP solvent) and then a dry patch before following with the bullet.

I find that this loading does well up to 1000 yards - any failures to score well being down to me and my still relative short step on the wind-reading learning curve so far.

At a hundred yards I tend to use a 480 Lyman mould grease-groove bullet instead and only use one slightly damp patch to clean with. The time restrictions in the hundred yard shoots makes this a more time-efficient way of loading. One of my first shoots with this combination claimed the current Oxfordshire County Record of 97 ex 100 (target still stuck on the wall above my computer here!).

My Whitworth will probably be used slightly less next year as I have just bought a Pedersoli Gibbs to compete in the MLAGB and Long Range Rifle championships with. My Whitworth is excellent and it has been great to see what I could get out of it but I have to have a really good day to keep up with the guys with their Gibbs rifles, even on wind-less days. I won't be parting with the Whitworth however and will use it in the various 'Volunteer' and Whitworth matches as well as using it generally at Bisley because I simply enjoy using such a fine rifle.

Regards,

Jason

 

[JasonUK]

Hi Paul, Thank you for your helpful post. I have not been using any detergents on the patches I have been running down the barrel to clean with. Just Napier gun oil, which I also use to leave a film in and on the barrel afterwards. I have been trying to think where I first started using oil for all purposes and can only think it was the Army when we cleaned with oil and coated the rifle in the same oil afterwards. Clearly this method simply does not cut it when used with muzzle-loaders. I will be be on the look out for a good rust-preventative next time I am at the gun shop. Many thanks again,

Jason

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oil works fine when cleaning modern rifles using smokeless powder, and copper jacketed bullets. It is Not what you want to use when cleaning Black Powder. Soap and warm water will do the trick. The soap emulsifies the carbon, in the water, so it can be flushed from the barrel. Otherwise, you will get gray patches every time you run a clean white patch down the barrel. Water simply cannot get the carbon out of the pores of the barrel. Your cleaning time will be reduced from 2 hours, to less than 15 minutes, once you use the right cleaners, and develop a routine. BTDT. :shocked2: :haha: :hmm:

Rust is a result of Iron and water meeting, where an Oxygen atom is taken from the water and attached to the iron molecule to form Ferric Oxide.(Rust!) The more iron present, without other elements, such as Chromium, or Molybdenum, etc. to bond with the iron molecules to make a harder steel less able to corrode, you get rust faster. Hence, old iron barrels rust faster than do modern steel(alloy) barrels.

You prevent oxidation of both iron and steel barrels by coating the surfaces with something that does NOT allow moisture to touch the metal. That can be wax, oil, or any combination of the two. There are also new, synthetic compounds that perform the same function. :thumbsup: