Whitworth rifle range report

[Widows Son]

Hello again, I hope everyone is doing well.
I’m still awaiting delivery of my MVA sight base, so I thought I would do some chronograph work to see how much powder would be necessary for around 1300 fps. I recall reading or hearing somewhere that is typical velocity necessary for long ranges.

I won’t burden everyone with little details but by the time the range closed I was needing 120 grains by volume of Wano FFg to get 1245 fps. I was using a 3mm thick leather wad topped with a greased felt wad. And it kicked like two mules!
I’ll go back in a couple of days and keep experimenting. The chronograph showed that putting a felt wad on top of the leather wad added about 15-18 fps velocity over just using a leather wad.

I wasn’t concerned with accuracy today so I just had a swinging self-healing target as a point of aim at 100 metres. I was aiming low and shooting way high

 

[Dave Fox]

Curious. Why the concern about velocity? That long, long slug has the dynamic inertia of a loaded freight train.

 

[brazosland]

In a .45 bore I would think 3F would be much more efficient and faster.

 

[ResearchPress]

In a .45 bore I would think 3F would be much more efficient and faster.

If anything I would go the other way and try a more coarse grain like Swiss 1.5Fg; shooting a long range course of fire with a 530 or so grain bullet and hexagonal 1 in 20 twist rifling can be punishing.

I won’t burden everyone with little details but by the time the range closed I was needing 120 grains by volume of Wano FFg to get 1245 fps. I was using a 3mm thick leather wad topped with a greased felt wad. And it kicked like two mules!

Recoil needs to be manageable otherwise increased powder charge / smaller grain will be counter-productive to your shooting. 85 grains of Curtis & Harvey No. 5 or 6 were more typical charges with the Whitworth in the 19thC - these are quite coarse powders - similar to Fg, although I don’t know their density. I use 90g of Swiss No. 3 (FFg) in my Gibbs-Metford and have won matches at 1000 yards.

David

 

[Rudyard]

The Whitworth was designed to use the then service charge for the 1853 Enfield's which was 2 & a half Drams of powder & a 530 grain bullet. Much more to do with logistics than ballistics .WW s initial brief was to find out why seemingly same rifles varied in performance & he a prominent Engineer delved into that for the Ordnance dept .Then given a brief to look into alternate's and given Westley Richards aid , Westley Richards had made a meccanicaly fitting rifle projectile for The noted Engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunnel though the idea was an old one except the pitch which WW determined that one in twenty inches suited the governing critierior of bullet wieght specs . to powder the Ordnance had specified . Though numbers where made it wasn't thought suitable for other than limited issue in a sniper type roll haveing a more delicate cartridge & tendency to foul more . But WW saw potencial & set up a factory to market his rifles & cannons . His Rifle was thee leading light for Volunteers & target shooters but was eclipsed by better systems such a Metfords & Rigbys 2 & half drams is about 75 grains I should add .

In short may I suggest listen to David Minshall a prooven performer & stop beating your self up !.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Widows Son]

Thank you Dave and David and Rudyard. I have certainly taken your points.

‘I’m experimenting with velocity because it has come to my attention from skilled LRML shooters that in order to hit a target 600-1000 yards away they are needing 1250-1350 fps from their respective powder charges. I believe Dr Balazs Nemeth makes mention of this.

The only powder available in my state and neighboring states is a German powder Wano, either made by or is rebranded Scheutzen. That’s all there is. I understand that Swiss is the top-shelf choice of international champions, and it most closely reproduces the extinct Curtis & Harvey, but it’s just not available. I’ll find rocking-horse poop before I find Swiss. 2 and half drams (75gr) of Wano gave me 1010fps. My slugs weigh 557 grains paper patched and are 1:20 lead/tin.

I was expecting something around 90-95 grains of powder would be sufficient, but 120 grains seems unnecessary and uneconomic. Perhaps I should use a lighter alloy to reduce the bullet weight?

My adventure with this damn Whitworth has been a step forward and a step backwards. I’m so careful about consistency in everything I do. Each charge and bullet individually weighed, the bore wiped between shots the same number of strokes with the same cloth type, my shooting position repeated each time. I keep notes of everything.

I’m pretty much convinced that the military notch and blade sights don’t let my ageing eyes make cloverleafs anymore. However just keeping the shots anywhere in the black is unpredictable, even from a rest. Once my tang sights are fitted I’m hoping for improvement.

 

[Colonial Boy]

Just to add a, perhaps unnecessary, item; when Lynton McKenzie and I shot Mick Smith’s original Whitworth target rifle, we noted that the original owner had a printed range record book and that he even noted the barometric pressure each time he shot a target.

Hope this helps

 

[Widows Son]

Just to add a, perhaps unnecessary, item; when Lynton McKenzie and I shot Mick Smith’s original Whitworth target rifle, we noted that the original owner had a printed range record book and that he even noted the barometric pressure each time he shot a target.

Hope this helps

Well..thanks…uh..

 

[dave951]

Thank you Dave and David and Rudyard. I have certainly taken your points.

‘I’m experimenting with velocity because it has come to my attention from skilled LRML shooters that in order to hit a target 600-1000 yards away they are needing 1250-1350 fps from their respective powder charges. I believe Dr Balazs Nemeth makes mention of this.

The only powder available in my state and neighboring states is a German powder Wano, either made by or is rebranded Scheutzen. That’s all there is. I understand that Swiss is the top-shelf choice of international champions, and it most closely reproduces the extinct Curtis & Harvey, but it’s just not available. I’ll find rocking-horse poop before I find Swiss. 2 and half drams (75gr) of Wano gave me 1010fps. My slugs weigh 557 grains paper patched and are 1:20 lead/tin.

I was expecting something around 90-95 grains of powder would be sufficient, but 120 grains seems unnecessary and uneconomic. Perhaps I should use a lighter alloy to reduce the bullet weight?

My adventure with this damn Whitworth has been a step forward and a step backwards. I’m so careful about consistency in everything I do. Each charge and bullet individually weighed, the bore wiped between shots the same number of strokes with the same cloth type, my shooting position repeated each time. I keep notes of everything.

I’m pretty much convinced that the military notch and blade sights don’t let my ageing eyes make cloverleafs anymore. However just keeping the shots anywhere in the black is unpredictable, even from a rest. Once my tang sights are fitted I’m hoping for improvement.

I'd try some 3f if you can get it. We use it all the time in competition shooting and for most folks, the fouling is less.

For you loads, have you tried an over powder card and a "grease cookie" wad over that, then the bullet?

 

[Widows Son]

Hi mate,
I use 3f in my round ball longrifle and shotgun and I intended to use it with this but sound advice from very knowledgeable shooters advised against it because of dangerous breech pressures.

I haven’t tried a grease cookie and I won’t rule it out. I suspect that finding the wad type is a milestone in getting this beast to shoot.

 

[dave951]

Hi mate,
I use 3f in my round ball longrifle and shotgun and I intended to use it with this but sound advice from very knowledgeable shooters advised against it because of dangerous breech pressures.

For what it's worth, I'm a NRA Muzzleloading Instructor, black powder competition shooter and long time black powder enthusiast. Yes, you can use 3f, cut the charge level about 10% and work up your load from there. I use 3f in everything including my 69cal smoothbore. In my 69, 2f produces more fouling than 3f. I've seen the same in my competition muskets. Example, fouling in my P58 is such that I don't wipe between shots with no loss of accuracy. The higher pressure thing is only a problem if you start out with insanely large charges to start with. As with any arm doing load development, start low, work up looking for accuracy.

But what do I know........

 

[Bad Karma]

For what it's worth, I'm a NRA Muzzleloading Instructor, black powder competition shooter and long time black powder enthusiast. Yes, you can use 3f, cut the charge level about 10% and work up your load from there. I use 3f in everything including my 69cal smoothbore. In my 69, 2f produces more fouling than 3f. I've seen the same in my competition muskets. Example, fouling in my P58 is such that I don't wipe between shots with no loss of accuracy. The higher pressure thing is only a problem if you start out with insanely large charges to start with. As with any arm doing load development, start low, work up looking for accuracy.

But what do I know........
View attachment 116906

I hear every so often people warning against excess pressure. Ok, so how are they determining when they’re reaching these excessive pressures? What are the signs? Personally, I watch the orifice of the nipple,when I see erosion, I replace them. 3f will give higher pressure generally, not dangerous really, but it’s going to eat common steel nipples…

 

[ResearchPress]

I use 3f in my round ball longrifle and shotgun and I intended to use it with this but sound advice from very knowledgeable shooters advised against it because of dangerous breech pressures.

3F can be used effectively in the .45 long range match rifles at short range - I wasn't happy with my results though when I tried it, primarily due to fouling control - it sometimes leaving a hard ring of fouling where the bullet was seated. Shooting a 13 shot match in 30 minutes did not leave me much time for finesse in cleaning between shots. Coarser grade powders I found less problematic. I shoot little at short range (<200 yards) with match rifle nowadays.

Short range accuracy does not necessarily transfer to the same at long range. Fine grain powders may increase felt recoil and be detrimental to shooting, and as posted above increase risk of nipple erosion. The latter can lead to loss of accuracy and in extreme cases lock damage due to hammer blow back - just monitor this when cleaning.

Most people I know (and from results of others) use 2F or 1.5F for this class of rifle for long range shooting. The Oak Ridge match includes many of the top US long range riflemen. The equipment list from March 2020 shows 2 of the 24 riflemen used 3F, and finishing on 13th and 22nd places. The rest used 2F or 1.5F. As I mentioned in an earlier post - the preferred powder used at long range in the 19thC were closer in grain size to Fg.

If you clean between shots, have you tried just using a plain card wad rather than the multiple wads you refer to?

David

 

[Britsmoothy]

Why the alloy? Why not pure lead?

 

[Widows Son]

If you clean between shots, have you tried just using a plain card wad rather than the multiple wads you refer to?

Hi mate, thanks for your consideration.
As I said a few posts ago, my journey with this rifle is a step forward and then a step back. I keep notes of every shot but my results are inconclusive. I seem to be having the best results with greased cork or leather wads, a then felt on top boosted my fps a bit.

 

[Widows Son]

Why the alloy? Why not pure lead?

Part of the advice I have received is that pure lead doesn’t maintain nose integrity at long ranges as well as an alloy.

6 months ago I had never fired a long range traditional muzzleloader. It’s much more involved than patched round ball shooting. A few generous souls on this forum and here in Australia have helped me with things to do and things to avoid. Myself, not knowing any better, will take their advice even when I don’t really understand why

 

[Britsmoothy]

Part of the advice I have received is that pure lead doesn’t maintain nose integrity at long ranges as well as an alloy.

6 months ago I had never fired a long range traditional muzzleloader. It’s much more involved than patched round ball shooting. A few generous souls on this forum and here in Australia have helped me with things to do and things to avoid. Myself, not knowing any better, will take their advice even when I don’t really understand why

I would have to try it for myself!
Pure lead also fills the bore upon firing.
Unlike a cartridge the bullet in a muzzloader is in effect undersized. Add an alloy so the bullet can not upset to fill the bore is never going to help accuracy.
What we're the original bullets? Pure lead or other?

 

[ResearchPress]

Part of the advice I have received is that pure lead doesn’t maintain nose integrity at long ranges as well as an alloy.

Depends also on the nose shape - some are quite rounded and will have less 'slump'. Your 20:1 is harder than I use in match rifles, although if you're shooting hexagonal bullets there's more scope for harder alloy. Cylindrical need to be soft to bump up to fit the hex. bore.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

Pure lead also fills the bore upon firing.
Unlike a cartridge the bullet in a muzzloader is in effect undersized. Add an alloy so the bullet can not upset to fill the bore is never going to help accuracy.
What we're the original bullets? Pure lead or other?

It really depends on the rifling. Metford rifling for example was designed specifically to use hardened bullets. When Sir Henry Halford won the Cambridge Cup in 1865 with a Gibbs-Metford, the The Times of 15 June 1865 had this to say of the rifle: "The weapon with which the prize was won, will, it is said, create some stir among those interested in small-bore and long-range shooting, being on entirely new principles." Metford's design utilised shallow rifling and a hardened expanding cylindrical bullet. I use a 30:1 lead:tin alloy in mine and have won matches out to 1200 yards with it. Metford and Halford did a lot of work with lead:tin:antimony alloys.

Back on topic and with regards to Whitworth the hexagonal bore and mechanically fitting bullets permitted alloys to be used, and hardened bullets were used for example in the Whitworth rifles issued to finalists in the Queen's Prize.

David

 

[Widows Son]

Today’s range trip was terrible. The rifle was acting like a complete pig. ( the rifle is just a piece of metal and wood, so it’s my fault). The muzzleloader gods were displeased. Tumbling bullets for some reason, couldn’t hit anything..but a bad day at the shooting range is still better than a good day at work.

I must learn a better and more effective way of cleaning between shots. I’m using FFg instead of the cleaner burning PP, and after 10 shots the flash hole in the bolster/snail was “welded’ shut with fouling. I had stubborn misfire and I couldn’t even get any powder trickled into the flash channel nor could I pick it out with welding tip cleaning needles. I had to pull the load and pour some water in the bore and let it sit for half an hour until the channel was clear.

I was using the ‘rigby method’ (is that the right word?) where you load the powder and wad, then wipe the fouling before loading the bullet. However with this dirty powder it seems I need to clean to the breech each time and then snap a couple of caps.

I using a 1:7 mix of cutting oil and water and a teaspoon of dish soap. Maybe I need to use something else?