I think you're right. The only time I've ever honestly found a 1/2" fiber cushion wad useful was when I shot 00 buckshot loads out of my doubles. Even then, I can't provide any evidence they improved patterns. They just "seemed" to provide a little less recoil to the heavy buckshot load. But, I can't say it was less for a fact. Just "felt" a little less. I need to experiment more on that load.
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Why cushion wads?
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It's a bit off topic but from your comments on cushion wads, I get the feeling you haven't read the topics and posts dealing with Skychief's discovery of what happens when one places a oiled cushion wad on top of the shot load?
He found that placing a cushion wad on top of the shot load, patterns greatly improved extending the useful range considerably.
A lot of our members have tried his idea and they have found that it does indeed work although no one really understands why it does.
If you haven't read about this, here are a couple of links that might be interesting.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/299716/fromsearch/1/tp/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/306342/
He found that placing a cushion wad on top of the shot load, patterns greatly improved extending the useful range considerably.
A lot of our members have tried his idea and they have found that it does indeed work although no one really understands why it does.
If you haven't read about this, here are a couple of links that might be interesting.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/299716/fromsearch/1/tp/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/306342/
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Ooh! Ooh!
I'm going to postulate that it is the "stationwagon effect" and the eddies behind the wad are pulling the shot back behind the center of the wad.
For you kids - a station wagon is like a hatchback that splits horizontally in the back. Leaving the upper part open was found to be the cause of carbon monoxide poisoning of kids who rode in the back because it would pull in the exhaust fumes.
My Dad tried and tried.
I'm going to postulate that it is the "stationwagon effect" and the eddies behind the wad are pulling the shot back behind the center of the wad.
For you kids - a station wagon is like a hatchback that splits horizontally in the back. Leaving the upper part open was found to be the cause of carbon monoxide poisoning of kids who rode in the back because it would pull in the exhaust fumes.
My Dad tried and tried.
Skychief
69 Cal.
Stumpkiller said:
Classic Stumpkiller :haha: :thumbsup:
:haha:Stumpkiller said:
You're right about that. I should correct myself. I have tried the Skychief load and it works great in one of my SXS Pedersolis with cylinder bores. It's the only loading with upland shot that I like using the cushion wad. I'm really glad he shared that load sequence because I would have had 2000 1/2" fiber cushion wads that I wouldn't have otherwise had any use for lol. But yes, you're right. That load works very well for me. When grouse hunting, I usually just load my left barrel with the skychief method to get better density at a little longer range for a second shot (although rare) in my left barrel. My first shot does pretty well for a close flushing shot loaded in the VM Star method. With the VM Star/Skychief load I've been able to simulate about a cylinder/Lt modified(approx) choke using 1-1/8oz #7-1/2 shot in the Rt barrel, and 1-1/4oz #7 Lawrence Magnum Hard Shot in the Lt barrel. It does pretty well.
Skychief,
With regards to your load fashion, the way I've normally done it is to lube the Fiber cushion wad just prior to loading and its worked well. But, I've been thinking about carrying say 10 or so in a plastic sandwich bag presaturated with veg oil when hunting to speed up loading. I wasn't sure though if that might cause the fiber wad to break down though...do you store them prelubed, or do you saturate them immediately prior to loading only?
With regards to your load fashion, the way I've normally done it is to lube the Fiber cushion wad just prior to loading and its worked well. But, I've been thinking about carrying say 10 or so in a plastic sandwich bag presaturated with veg oil when hunting to speed up loading. I wasn't sure though if that might cause the fiber wad to break down though...do you store them prelubed, or do you saturate them immediately prior to loading only?
I used the Skychief method 20 yrs ago (about) when I got my 1st shot gun. I just didnt know I was loading backwards. I thought the big ol fat wad had to go over shot to hold it in :haha: BUT I never did lube the front wad. Gonna start over with classic skychief load in the 20GA soon.
I've not tried it unlubed, so I'm not sure what the results would be. At first, I was a little concerned about pressure loading it the Skychief way, but the more I thought about it I figured it shouldn't make much difference regarding the load sequence. Seems fine, and definitely a marked pattern improvement.
Skychief
69 Cal.
Everett said:
Hello Everett. Glad to read your glowing reports about the Skychief Load. Really pleased that you're using it successfully :thumbsup: .
I lube the cushion wads prior to hunting to good effect. I use olive oil mostly now and saturate them with as much oil as they'll take. I don't clean up any excess or squeeze any out just plop them into a small container and into my hunting bag they go.
I've used them months after they were prepped with seemingly little or no loss of performance. That said, I have a suspicion that any loss of lube will not help patterns.
So, for an important hunt, such as turkey opener (let's face it, is any hunt more important? :wink: ), I'll prep a wad the day before, and down the spout it goes.
The question of dry wads has come up. My observations prove to me, the heavier the wad, the greater the results.
A couple other tidbits while we are on the subject which might prove helpful....
While all cushion wads may not be created alike, some will have one end that is darker and harder than the other. For example, I use a lot of wads from Flintlocks Inc. Which are made this way. I've noticed that having the darker/harder end oriented toward the muzzle to be more effective. Not much, but a little.
Also, I see a small difference in my patterns depending on how I place the wad (and thin card) onto the shot charge. I find it best to gently make contact with shot charge and call it good, instead of haphazardly ramming them onto the shot.
Further, at the risk of sounding :youcrazy: I'll tell you that I like to give the gun a little shake before loading the wad to settle the shot, holding the gun as vertically as possible. Does this help performance? I don't know, but it's a little step that makes Skychief feel good. :hatsoff:
Good luck and thanks for sharing with us, Skychief.
PS, thinking about your Eley cartridge....Before using oils for this load, I used a beeswax mixture. It worked too. Thinking the more solid lube might be better employed with your "Eley Project". Good luck!
I've used them months after they were prepped with seemingly little or no loss of performance. That said, I have a suspicion that any loss of lube will not help patterns.
As per above I erroneously loaded your way years ago. I did not use any lube. It certainly did improve the patterns (even in full choke tubes) but not sure if your lube first method would have helped even more. We need to experiment (I do, looks like you been playing with it for some time). Bummer I sold the gun I was using or I could compare w/o doing it both ways. I'll give it a shot in the 20 soon and let ya know. WEIRD how loading bassackwards of the "correct" way helps so much, you'd a thunk they would figured this out decades ago :haha:
As per above I erroneously loaded your way years ago. I did not use any lube. It certainly did improve the patterns (even in full choke tubes) but not sure if your lube first method would have helped even more. We need to experiment (I do, looks like you been playing with it for some time). Bummer I sold the gun I was using or I could compare w/o doing it both ways. I'll give it a shot in the 20 soon and let ya know. WEIRD how loading bassackwards of the "correct" way helps so much, you'd a thunk they would figured this out decades ago :haha:
Leatherbark said:
Looks like T/C was recommending the Skychief load about 40 years ago.
Of course none of the loading manuals that I was reading at that time listed that load.
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TC's cushion wads were .125 felt lubed with the yellow BB. Don't see them wanting a 1/2" wad for a top wad.
They sold them ready to go and with some thin overshot wads in some packages.
As usual TC would recommend what they sold, got to keep the profits to them selves. I am surprised they did not sell pre-packed shot! :hmm:
They sold them ready to go and with some thin overshot wads in some packages.
As usual TC would recommend what they sold, got to keep the profits to them selves. I am surprised they did not sell pre-packed shot! :hmm:
Out of curiosity, I got out my ancient TC Booklet that came with my .54 Hawken kit and sure enough, on page 41, they show two different ways to load their shotgun.
One method shown in Illustration A-1 has the powder loaded first, "one 1/2" Fiber wad" resting on the powder, the shot charge resting on the wad and another 1/2" Fiber Wad on top.
Illustration A-2 shows the powder at the bottom, "2 Natural Wads" over the powder, the shot charge and "One Natural Wad" on top.
They warn that the charge that uses the 1/2" Fiber Wad should only be used in a cylinder bore barrel.
The "Natural Wad" was a TC product "Made of woven wool" has a memory and according to the text, if it is rammed thru a choked barrel it will return to its former size.
The booklet says "TC's 1/2" fiber cushion wad should NOT be used,(with a choked barrel) as once it is constricted enough to be inserted in the full choke tube, it will not re-expand to the diameter of the bore over the powder charge."
IMO, this TC recommendation is more of a recommendation for a load for people who only have the 1/2" wads on hand.
No place does it mention soaking the wad in oil to create the kind of heavy wad load Skychief has come up with for the overshot wad.
One method shown in Illustration A-1 has the powder loaded first, "one 1/2" Fiber wad" resting on the powder, the shot charge resting on the wad and another 1/2" Fiber Wad on top.
Illustration A-2 shows the powder at the bottom, "2 Natural Wads" over the powder, the shot charge and "One Natural Wad" on top.
They warn that the charge that uses the 1/2" Fiber Wad should only be used in a cylinder bore barrel.
The "Natural Wad" was a TC product "Made of woven wool" has a memory and according to the text, if it is rammed thru a choked barrel it will return to its former size.
The booklet says "TC's 1/2" fiber cushion wad should NOT be used,(with a choked barrel) as once it is constricted enough to be inserted in the full choke tube, it will not re-expand to the diameter of the bore over the powder charge."
IMO, this TC recommendation is more of a recommendation for a load for people who only have the 1/2" wads on hand.
No place does it mention soaking the wad in oil to create the kind of heavy wad load Skychief has come up with for the overshot wad.
Anybody else have an issue with this page opening? I have to click on last page and scroll down to see new posts?
Yes I had to do the same as when I opened it went to a post reply
Yea, and I am a suff user with plenty of spit. I'm gonna try this today with my pattern testing.
Your correct about the fiber board's thickness. The sheets are for sheathing a brick house.The cork wads I have seen are about 1/8" thick and won't carry lube. they would replace your 1/* hard cards and/or your overshot card.
The reason they probably don't make 3/8" fiber is because fiber board might not come in 3/8". I think 3/8" would probably be ideal too. I'm still a big fan of 3/8" felt.
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