Why the "Skychief" load works?

[coloradoclyde]

We won't know until someone finally films it

I posted video about 5000 posts ago..... :haha:
Not the first time this argument has come up...

 

[CapPopper]

I missed that.... Ill have to go back and look lol

 

[CapPopper]

Unless you know where its at in all this lol id like to see it

 

[Britsmoothy]

Let us know, good or bad, what the results of your testing is.

Just a thought on the idea that a thin over-shot card will slow down and disrupt the column of shot behind it when it's fired:

It is undoubtably true that the lightweight card will try to slow down rapidly but my question is, would that actually deflect or spread the column of shot behind it?

When it comes to more modern shotgun ammo I remember the halcyon days of paper hulls, lead shot, overshot cards and roll crimps.

I also remember when one our ammunition companies was marketing shells with the star or folding crimp they took high speed photos of the shot column in flight that had been fired from shells with an overshot card and a roll crimp.

The photos revealed that the cards were deflecting some of the pellets in the column. This was not happening in the shot columns of the shells with a star crimp.

Now obviously they wanted to sell their shot shells with a star crimp but I don't think they were selling a load of snake oil to go with them. It made sense to me anyway.

I remember those photos too :thumbsup:

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I remember the late GT Garwood writing in one of his books, that we today can hardly ever produce such Consistent patterns as those produced by our late Victorian forbears, with black powder and rolled cartridges. He also said that these same cartridges can On Occasion produce a cartwheel effect, (Donut today!)
So yes, a card wad can on occasion deflect the shot. Not consistently, but now and then.
When I used to pattern my old hammer -guns, I shot at opened up feed sacks at 40 yards, and recall I think on one occasion a circle of shot with no middle in it. This was the only instance I think.
Yes, we often see small holes here and there, but nothing major. Quite normal for an open -bored gun. This was with rolled turnover cartridges.
What GT says has also to be taken, bearing in mind that the cartridges would be fired from good quality barrels, regulated for even shooting.

I must try the same experiments with a couple of flints and percussions, with the Skychief wads. (when I get at it!)

Very best,
Richard.

 

[smo]

I really can’t see a thin card even out of a 12 gauge having that much effect on all those shot....

Maybe a few .. but shot would be heavier than the card and penetrate it.
I would think 10 or 12 shot hitting the card would blow it into small pieces.

That may cause the shot to slow down somewhat.. but it would continue on it path. Would it not?


I would think with the wet wad being heavier than the a overshot card and larger in mass, more shot would hit it than hit the thin card.

Could it be that the weight of the wet wad allows the shot to easily penetrate it? Then continue on it path. :idunno:

 

[Leroyvdh]

Interesting read.. Coming back to shotguns after a long hiatus. I loaded 12ga back 35years ago. My son got me back shooting 12ga bp cartridge. He loads not I. I've only watched some of the fellas at the club with ML shotguns, to cool gotta have on, all the other kids have one. Well my Track order came ready to go, except -30C.. Spring's not that far.. This gives me some great options on the patterning board to play with.. The bumblebee, sometimes truer than not.
I have been reloading smokeless cartridge since 1983. I do have some experience.
Once again great discussion.
Thanks Leroy

 

[smo]

Welcome to the fire Leroy :hatsoff:

It’s always good to hear new views of things in camp.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Smo,

I can't see pellets penetrating a thick wad and carrying on in a straight line. If they hit it off centre it'd tipple and they'd wind up flying off somewhere else I think.
Same with a card wad, it they hit, they'd likely deflect a bit as they blew the card out of their path. I do remember picking up O. shot wads with streaks on them, and a bit battered looking.
No, it Has to be the Bumblebee syndrome if these thick wads work!

Leroy,
Maybe you'd like to come to our Annual Alberta shoot. (Victorian setting with a theme)
West of Innisfail /Bowden, on 23 rd & 24th June.

Been doing it 12 or 13 years I think.
Have blokes from as far as Salt Lake City, WA, sometimes TX, and NH, as well as Canadian provinces. Small do but they keep coming back!

I should adjust my profile. It says I joined up in 2007, but couldn't log in for years!

 

[smo]

I’m not sure what happens once the shot leaves the barrel.....

But apparently the Skychief load works!

I’ve got the fixins’ on the way from Midway.

I’ll put a few rounds down range and see what my results are.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I really can’t see a thin card even out of a 12 gauge having that much effect on all those shot....

Maybe a few .. but shot would be heavier than the card and penetrate it.
I would think 10 or 12 shot hitting the card would blow it into small pieces.

That may cause the shot to slow down somewhat.. but it would continue on it path. Would it not?


I would think with the wet wad being heavier than the a overshot card and larger in mass, more shot would hit it than hit the thin card.

Could it be that the weight of the wet wad allows the shot to easily penetrate it? Then continue on it path. :idunno:

The same could be said for itty bitty sticks and twigs but they still deflect shot!
Rifle bullets are deflected by grass, no?

 

[smo]

With all due respect Sir ..... sticks and twigs and such are stationary objects made of wood not a 1/8” thin paper overshot cards being propelled by black powder.

Hitting sticks and such down range will deflect rounds or shot perhaps, but not always. This would be after the shot started to slow down in speed.

However with the shot load coming out of the barrel right against the overshot card I really can’t see it having that much effect on the shot.

I just can’t see it disrupting the pattern that much.

If you stood a piece of card board 5 yards down range and shot through it you would still have a pattern at 20 yards?

I just can’t see a light weight thin card causing that much of an issue.

However I’ve been wrong before.... once , well maybe twice. :rotf:

 

[CapPopper]

But when they are all clumped together if just one pellet is slightly deflected out could make a massive difference to the other pellets that it deflects into.... I think the main Theory here is the heavy wad stays in front longer so the shot isn't so close together when it passes the wad

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I think you have it in your last sentence, Cap Popper.
The wad may even be dropping below the main shot charge by the time the shot passes it.
In my Snider -Enfield, I use thick felt wads below the bullet, and these can go a full 40 yards or more. I see no reason why a felt wad if thick and heavy, will not travel a good distance as well.

 

[Britsmoothy]

With all due respect Sir ..... sticks and twigs and such are stationary objects made of wood not a 1/8” thin paper overshot cards being propelled by black powder.

Hitting sticks and such down range will deflect rounds or shot perhaps, but not always. This would be after the shot started to slow down in speed.

However with the shot load coming out of the barrel right against the overshot card I really can’t see it having that much effect on the shot.

I just can’t see it disrupting the pattern that much.

If you stood a piece of card board 5 yards down range and shot through it you would still have a pattern at 20 yards?

I just can’t see a light weight thin card causing that much of an issue.

However I’ve been wrong before.... once , well maybe twice. :rotf:

Brother, they are way thinner than 1/8" usually and they do stop abruptly, that is why we find them on the ground just in front of the firing line despite being driven by immense pressure.

B :thumbsup:

 

[smo]

Mr. B, my point being a thin overshot card being propelled through the air would not interfere with enough shot to disperse the shot pattern. :wink:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Mr. B, my point being a thin overshot card being propelled through the air would not interfere with enough shot to disperse the shot pattern. :wink:

The rate of deceleration of the thin card compared to the shot makes the thin card very much an obstruction.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Spot on!

 

[smo]

:idunno:

Mr.B, I’m by far no expert on the what effects of a thin light weight overshot card has on the shot pattern.

But I have taken several birds on the fly in thick vegetation.

I’ve shot quail on the rise as they flushed through the limbs ,vines and tangles .

I’ve witnessed and I’m sure you have too leaves ,twigs and such falling to the ground after being hit by the shot.

But still the bird was killed.

I don’t know if the shot penetrated the obstruction killing the bird or if the shot was deflected into the bird by the obstruction or if the bird was killed by the other 100 or so shot that wasn’t obstructed by the vegetation .

Either way the bird ended up in my game bag .

At the end of the day that’s all that matters. :thumbsup:

Without video evidence of shot being deflected by the overshot card I can’t see it happening.

Atleast not with the potential to disrupt enough of the shot load for it not to be lethal at normal hunting ranges for open bore guns.

Like I mentioned before, even shooting through a sheet of card board placed down range , your shot will continue on its path.

It would most likely be slowed down somewhat on down range , but traveling at over 1000 fps not enough to have that much effect at a normal effective hunting distances. :v

 

[Pukka Bundook]

FWIW,

I forget his name, but an American Olympic M-loading trap shooter (Gold medal numerous times I believe) used wads punched out of cardboard.
He used a single card over the powder, and a single card over the shot.
He being so good a shot, was asked about his load on various occasions.
He said that more cards could be used.... If you enjoy making them!
I will look out (as time permits) the known evidence for an over -shot card disrupting the shot pattern,...'On Occasion".
It was a well known phenomenon when rolled turnover cartridges were used.
Well known, but uncommon at best.

Richard.