Will the bottom fall out of the custom build business?

[Jedidiah]

The few guys I've seen when I visited Memphis, are no Mongols, by any means! I may be wrong, but I don't think Mongols wore high heels, make up, and carried a murse, or in this case, purse is more proper!

I knew a few guys in Philly that used to ride with the Mongols. Interesting crowd.

 

[Jedidiah]

The problem in this conversation is some people are thinking in terms of "investment."
The price of these guns new is based on material costs and work put into them.
The resale value may simply be signifigantly lower in most cases.
Its this way in other hobbies such as modern fire arms and traditional archery(in both these hobbies there voluminous closets all across the country full of like new items that can never be sold for what they originally cost.)

Buy custom flintlocks because you like to shoot them or buy them because they look nice on your wall. If you are concerned about where they eventually go - either give them away or make a will.

I agree 110%. However, There are many people and some here too who think because they paid x for something they should get at least x or more for it! LOL,LOL When I sell something if I break even i am happy, if a make a buck or two, that is rare.

 

[th1840]

I am finding there is still a very strong demand for custom rifles right now. Having said that, I am taking a break from building due to a few reasons. Number one is that the cost of components has risen to a point where I fear the basic build is going to be beyond what a shooter/hunter is willing to pay, and those buyers are my market. Number two is because quality components are tending to be scarce right now and I am seeing some quality control issues that need to be ironed out.

I am pleased by the influx of the kit products being produced by Jim Kibler and I do believe they are having an impact on the casual or relatively new builder. That is not a negative as I see it bringing more interest into our sport and it gives people the chance to have a role in producing their rifle. I do have an issue though with kit builders referring to themselves as builders. Assemblers would seem to be a more correct term.

I think we will see a steady need for quality built arms, especially those that require a high degree of skill in constructing custom parts and things such as carving and inlay work.

I think a lack of shooting facilities, a steady reliable source of primers/flints and powder is going to be a real factor in determining our sports future.

Lastly, I think we do have an issue with the younger generation not gravitating to black powder firearms. They have been raised in a time where they can buy instant gratification and to be honest a Throw Away society. I believe all skills relating to hand crafting will suffer to some degree in the future.

In response to being an assembler not builder I had the privilege of talking to John Bivins and he called himself a gun stocker which I found very interesting not a custom builder. It humbled me as I did and still do buy components from Jim Chambers and others and assemble a rifle or pistol. Just some of my thoughts.

 

[BruceHH]

In response to being an assembler not builder I had the privilege of talking to John Bivins and he called himself a gun stocker which I found very interesting not a custom builder. It humbled me as I did and still do buy components from Jim Chandler and others and assemble a rifle or pistol. Just some of my thoughts.

It is just a small thing to me, but I do bring it up on occasion. There are many different levels of building these firearms and all of them are equally enjoyable and should be recognized as legitimate. Builder to me is someone who makes the components and then puts them into a piece of wood. Gun Stocker is probably the best term for most of us who build with store bought or self manf. parts and put them into a piece of wood. Kit assembly is just as important, just not building. I will say though that I think kits such as Kibler's are fantastic and they may play an important role in expanding our hobby. An affordable, quality firearm that the owner can take some pride in putting together has to be a good thing.

 

[TNTraveler]

Traditional archery high end companies are experiencing a slow down already, I think one issue will be over saturation of the market, an issue with trad archery now, it happened with Harley Davidsons a while back also, plus everything comes and goes in cycles, right now everything old is cool, it will never die out but in the future the popularity I believe will slow down, my grandkids hunt and fish and shoot, but they are buying the unmentionables, the old ways aren't popular with the younger generation, they are more into the tech/modern way

 

[stikshooter]

It may be all in vein, but we should all insist that the muzzleloading season should only be for traditional muzzleloaders only. Inlines NOT ALLOWED!

Sure cut out the new comers that will keep our sport alive , Makes perfect sense to discourage anyone who does not think like you but you will be left holding your fence post (formerly known )as your black powder burner and now useful for tomato stakes too ! No new shooters/no new guns/new gunsmiths/no black powder and lead outlawed ,yup fools like you are gonna save our sport (NOT) @!!/Ed

 

[david w]

Sure cut out the new comers that will keep our sport alive , Makes perfect sense to discourage anyone who does not think like you but you will be left holding your fence post (formerly known )as your black powder burner and now useful for tomato stakes too ! No new shooters/no new guns/new gunsmiths/no black powder and lead outlawed ,yup fools like you are gonna save our sport (NOT) @!!/Ed

How about having a season for those newer contraptions with plastic stocks, scopes, and unmentionable bullets surrounded by plastic. Muzzleloading season was created for "primitive" firearms. Pennsylvania has a flintlock only season. Tell your story to them. What people like me don't want to die out, is the history of black powder guns.
Please refrain from calling me a fool. I highly resent that remark. Highly.

 

[Bushfire]

Sure cut out the new comers that will keep our sport alive , Makes perfect sense to discourage anyone who does not think like you but you will be left holding your fence post (formerly known )as your black powder burner and now useful for tomato stakes too ! No new shooters/no new guns/new gunsmiths/no black powder and lead outlawed ,yup fools like you are gonna save our sport (NOT) @!!/Ed

Its a slippery slope to ending up like us and having no weapon specific seasons. That is a sure fire way to kill off muzzleloaders. It's one of the main reasons they're dead here. Why hunt with a muzzleloader when you can spot a deer using thermal monoculars and shoot them from 1000 yards out with 338WM every day of the year.
If you don't preserve the tradition it will be gone.

 

[64Springer]

How about having a season for those newer contraptions with plastic stocks, scopes, and unmentionable bullets surrounded by plastic. Muzzleloading season was created for "primitive" firearms. Pennsylvania has a flintlock only season. Tell your story to them.

Respectfully, muzzleloading season wasn't created for "Primitive" firearms.

Muzzleloading season, when introduced, was for the most common percussion and flintlock muzzleloaders already in production. In-line muzzleloaders were still decades away from being invented and mass produced in great numbers. Had they been around, no one would have gotten a burr up their butt about their usage. Because they would have been in wide use and fully accepted as a hunting tool.

States would go bonkers trying to please everyone. Long rifle flintlock season. Long rifle percussion season. Hawken rifle season. Mountain rifle season. Crockett rifle season. Smooth bore only season. And there'd have to be Traditions Kentuckyish and Hawkenish seasons because everyone knows they're not "Real" muzzleloaders and shouldn't be allowed during "Real" muzzleloader season. Then there's bare ball. Patched ball. Minnie ball. Maxi ball. Are we to regulate the snot out of projectiles too? People use Delrin and fiberglass for ramrods. Oh, the horror.

As gun owners, ANYTHING with a trigger should be accepted if the firearms community as a whole is going to survive.

Let the Left dabble in classism. I refuse to.

 

[david w]

Respectfully, muzzleloading season wasn't created for "Primitive" firearms.

Muzzleloading season, when introduced, was for the most common percussion and flintlock muzzleloaders already in production. In-line muzzleloaders were still decades away from being invented and mass produced in great numbers. Had they been around, no one would have gotten a burr up their butt about their usage. Because they would have been in wide use and fully accepted as a hunting tool.

States would go bonkers trying to please everyone. Long rifle flintlock season. Long rifle percussion season. Hawken rifle season. Mountain rifle season. Crockett rifle season. And there'd have to be Traditions Kentuckyish and Hawkenish seasons because everyone knows they're not "Real" muzzleloaders and shouldn't be allowed during "Real" muzzleloader season. Then there's bare ball. Patched ball. Minnie ball. Maxi ball. Are we to regulate the snot out of projectiles too? People use Delrin and fiberglass for ramrods. Oh, the horror.

As gun owners, ANYTHING with a trigger should be accepted if the firearms community as a whole is going to survive.

Let the Left dabble in classism. I refuse to.

We agree to disagree.

 

[billraby]

The custom building business is not going away. It is going to have its highs and lows, but it will remain. The Kibler guns are a different product than what the big money customers want. If Mr Kibler were to build a rifle identical to one of his kits, but built it from a blank with no computer tools, he could sell it for far more than he could get for one of his kits. Single action revolvers will typically cost about $300 extra if you get one engraved by a computer machine. Get one engraved by hand and it will easily be an extra $10,000. Holland & Holland will often add on well over $100,000 extra to the price. And they have a waiting list also. People are willing pay for the craftsmanship. Anything custom made has a value above machine or assembly line made.

Custom muzzleloaders are dirt cheap. Hard to imagine that anyone would make one for $3000 to $5000. If I were to build one for a customer, which I won't, price would start at about $25,000 to $30,000, because for any less than that, I would make more money at my job in the time it would take me to build a gun. And prices would go up as soon as I had more than one job on the waiting list.

Then there is all the anger at the price of custom and even production guns. Its pricing people out of the hobby. Well, the custom yacht that I want to get will cost about $30 million and then there is a couple million dollars more in annual operating expense. It is putting a serious dent in my yachting hobby. So I decided Formula 1 race cars would be a fun hobby. But I got priced out of that also. Not very happy about it. Finally I decided to face reality and find a hobby that I can afford. Very large numbers of people cannot afford to do the fun things that they would like to. That is just the real world. You either find a way to afford it or you find something else to do.

The Kibler kits have brought getting a fine rifle within the reach of a lot more people. But there are still plenty of people out there willing to pay $10,000+ for a one of a kind hand made gun. I think the Kibler kits have knocked a lot of the mediocre builders out of the market. But it is not going to have any effect on the high end builders.

 

[Eterry]

I disagree with this notion. The more hunters and shooters there are, the better. I don't care if the dude in the next woodlot is carrying an inline or not, It doesn't really matter to me. He can shoot his deer at 150 yards if he is able, I will shoot mine at fifty yards and the younger dude can help me drag it out of the woods. I have an inline.... which I rarely shoot, but I got one. No place in this declining area for gun snobs.



I'm with Dale. How many new members have we seen in the last year who's first post started something like " I got into muzzleloading so I could hunt more. I got an inline cause my friends had one. But the look, feel, and history behind the replicas was overwhelming. I've just ordered an XYZ Flintlock and can't wait to shoot it

Snobbery has only ONE outcome. Ask Louis XIV.

 

[stikshooter]

How about having a season for those newer contraptions with plastic stocks, scopes, and unmentionable bullets surrounded by plastic. Muzzleloading season was created for "primitive" firearms. Pennsylvania has a flintlock only season. Tell your story to them. What people like me don't want to die out, is the history of black powder guns.
Please refrain from calling me a fool. I highly resent that remark. Highly.

Nicest thing I could say given your attitude towards future of hunting . But the participants are getting smaller every year and like the Doe Doe bird , that's the result of folks that don't get more folks involved
(we all suffer) because of it /Ed

 

[david w]

Nicest thing I could say given your attitude towards future of hunting . But the participants are getting smaller every year and like the Doe Doe bird , that's the result of folks that don't get more folks involved
(we all suffer) because of it /Ed

Try shooting one of those modern front stuffers at 99% of muzzleloading matches.

 

[Patched]

The custom building business is not going away. It is going to have its highs and lows, but it will remain. The Kibler guns are a different product than what the big money customers want. If Mr Kibler were to build a rifle identical to one of his kits, but built it from a blank with no computer tools, he could sell it for far more than he could get for one of his kits. Single action revolvers will typically cost about $300 extra if you get one engraved by a computer machine. Get one engraved by hand and it will easily be an extra $10,000. Holland & Holland will often add on well over $100,000 extra to the price. And they have a waiting list also. People are willing pay for the craftsmanship. Anything custom made has a value above machine or assembly line made.

Custom muzzleloaders are dirt cheap. Hard to imagine that anyone would make one for $3000 to $5000. If I were to build one for a customer, which I won't, price would start at about $25,000 to $30,000, because for any less than that, I would make more money at my job in the time it would take me to build a gun. And prices would go up as soon as I had more than one job on the waiting list.

Then there is all the anger at the price of custom and even production guns. Its pricing people out of the hobby. Well, the custom yacht that I want to get will cost about $30 million and then there is a couple million dollars more in annual operating expense. It is putting a serious dent in my yachting hobby. So I decided Formula 1 race cars would be a fun hobby. But I got priced out of that also. Not very happy about it. Finally I decided to face reality and find a hobby that I can afford. Very large numbers of people cannot afford to do the fun things that they would like to. That is just the real world. You either find a way to afford it or you find something else to do.

The Kibler kits have brought getting a fine rifle within the reach of a lot more people. But there are still plenty of people out there willing to pay $10,000+ for a one of a kind hand made gun. I think the Kibler kits have knocked a lot of the mediocre builders out of the market. But it is not going to have any effect on the high end builders.

Kibler has done all architectural design, collected period correct components and precision layout for the assembler. He does offer assembly for a fee.
What he offers would take years of study, experience and skill development.
He’s prevented a lot of mistakes and frustration.

 

[Jim K]

I'm generally a proponent for less is more, in this instance nothing would be more!

It needs some tacks yet

 

[Eterry]

Let's keep this about the topic and not get personal.

 

[Campbell]

how can young people get interested in ML when old guys buy up everything they would need to shoot the rifles if even rifles could be found

Hahaha! Take a lesson from “old guys” and be prepared.

 

[mushka]

All I know is that big money to me is chump change to someone else. We're all on different levels.

 

[Stantheman86]

The main thing keeping American Muzzleloading afloat is the ability to freely buy and sell them without the FFL hassle, and even then there aren't many people in the 18-40 Demographic looking to buy custom Hawkens, rifled-muskets from places like Romano who doesn't even have a website anymore or other high-end front stuffers. The majority of hunters buy cheap mass produced rifles to extend their season. Fewer hunters are buying a custom flintlock to take in the field.

How many rifles are these custom builders actually making and selling though? 50 per year? 100? That's still probably $200,000 in profit per year. And some of these "customs" probably go to repeat buyers who collect them. As these buyers age and go on to the Great Reward, demand will wane for high-end custom muzzleloading rifles.

When I go to one of my gun clubs to shoot, which is a lot, I RARELY see anyone else shooting any kind of muzzleloader except for the week or so leading up to Primitive or Inline Season, when guys bring their CVA's or T/C's, or whatever inlines out to pop 3 rounds off to confirm zero. I am the "oddball" on the firing line with stocked percussion revolvers, Enfield rifle-muskets, etc among all the dudes with bolt action target rifles, ARs, or whatever else. Maybe, 2 years ago I saw a guy with a cap and ball revolver in the pistol pits but I never saw that guy again.

Muzzleloaders are "toys" to most people involved in the shooting game, or they see them as a novelty.

Taking people shooting or letting people shoot muzzleloaders? I do it all the time. They are all super interested, think they are "cool", all like "what is that thing??" and I let them shoot muzzleloaders or cap and ballers. I've seen those same people dozens of times again, still shooting AK clones or 9mm pistols. Not a ONE of them is like "I bought an 1858 Remington". People think they are cool but not cool enough to buy, they'll keep playing with their usual guns.

Cap and Ball revolvers are doing well, compared to muzzleloading rifles, because they are paperwork free handguns and most younger people are more likely to play with "cowboy guns" or Civil War pistols than a custom Kentucky Rifle.

I'm going out on a limb here but I feel the majority of customers for custom, high end muzzleloaders are men in the 45+ Demographic who have the $$ and time to purchase and enjoy them......kids are out of the house, they are higher up on their careers, etc

It's like when the Classic Muscle Car market exploded a while back....who was buying them? Men in their 40's+.