Will the bottom fall out of the custom build business?

[DuncNZ]

In response to being an assembler not builder I had the privilege of talking to John Bivins and he called himself a gun stocker which I found very interesting not a custom builder. It humbled me as I did and still do buy components from Jim Chambers and others and assemble a rifle or pistol. Just some of my thoughts.

I have a friend who was a gun stocker for Purdy , he did all the filing , fitting and finishing of the barrels , locks , action and stock which were supplied to him in the rough by other smiths in the shop .

 

[BS2366]

The Play Station, Gameboy generation can't get off the couch long enough to learn anything useful! They'll sell their soul for 30 more minutes of game play! They don't usually reach adulthood until they're 50 yrs. old but then realize they wasted their best yrs. and remain unskilled and useless! Video games, the most useless thing ever conceived by humanity!

I play one video game. But, I also do a lot of other things. It's boring only having one hobby.

 

[Rawhide67]

Who knows, we may see a 2nd resurgence of muzzleloading because of skyrocketing ammo costs, legislation, crippling hoops to jump through......so muzzleloading may become the "last holdout " of the shooting sports like it is in a lot of European countries

And.... When everything else becomes illegal, all we will be left with are muzzleloaders. Then, all of us will be ahead of the curve, not late to the party.

 

[Walkaheap]

I'm just at 60 years old now. When I started it seemed like getting into the hobby was more affordable-maybe not. I lucked out and found a mentor at Ft. Nisqually in Tacoma when I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, WA. Custom guns are not cheap to build or buy and I'd say us more seasoned folks need to help pass on what we've learned. There's great examples of people like that on this forum. I've passed some of my interests onto my children and I'm hoping they pass it on too.
Walkaheep, hard by the Platte

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I'm wondering how many of you are actually professional custom gunmakers and would therefore have a qualified opinion. Most of these posts are complete nonsense.

 

[BS2366]

I'm wondering how many of you are actually professional custom gunmakers and would therefore have a qualified opinion. Most of these posts are complete nonsense.

I'm not a professional custom gun maker.

 

[vintovka]

And.... When everything else becomes illegal, all we will be left with are muzzleloaders. Then, all of us will be ahead of the curve, not late to the party.

And even the crudest ML may be enough to get you something high tech.

 

[maillemaker]

I'm not a professional gunmaker, but I was a professional medieval armor maker. I think the dynamics are similar. In a niche market you need to chase the high-dollar market clientele, not the flea market clientele.

 

[Stantheman86]

And.... When everything else becomes illegal, all we will be left with are muzzleloaders. Then, all of us will be ahead of the curve, not late to the party.

It will be some weird scenario where we become like England and everyone is shooting front stuffers at the range , and people like us are no longer "different " we're now highly experienced

I will teach "practical percussion revolver shooting " as a side gig

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm not a professional gunmaker, but I was a professional medieval armor maker. I think the dynamics are similar. In a niche market you need to chase the high-dollar market clientele, not the flea market clientele.

Niche markets can really thrive , if that niche is full of people with money

The guy in the UK that makes repro Siege Crossbows that shoot 1 mile and other authentic weapons has been around for a while, apparently people are willing to pay $5000 for crossbows

Or the guy who sells his Wheelocks for lots of $$

There seems to be no shortage of people in our niche, Lodgewood told me it's a 3+ month backlog to have my Pedersoli defarbed so people are using their services. Probably other middle aged men with disposable $$ that are willing to fork over $400 to have a pretty Pedersoli CS Richmond

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

It will be some weird scenario where we become like England and everyone is shooting front stuffers at the range , and people like us are no longer "different " we're now highly experienced

I will teach "practical percussion revolver shooting " as a side gig

Ain't happening at my house.

 

[TDM]

Hope it remains that way. And Lodgewood does very nice work.

 

[B P Arn]

And.... When everything else becomes illegal, all we will be left with are muzzleloaders. Then, all of us will be ahead of the curve, not late to the party.

Why would anyone think we would be left with muzzle loaders? The Left wants everything.

 

[mikesto44]

The quote professional gun maker is a term. Back in the day when I did pro photography. I had a customer ask me " What is the difference between a professional and a amateur..? "
The difference is the customer pays for the mistakes of the professional. The amateur pays for their own...

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm wondering how many of you are actually professional custom gunmakers and would therefore have a qualified opinion. Most of these posts are complete nonsense.

Most professional gun makers won't hang out in what's basically a chat room full of cranky old dudes that would probably tell them how to do their jobs because they built a CVA kit in '72

Most buyers of $20,000 Kentucky rifles probably don't hang out here either

So you get to endure the nonsense of people who aren't even involved in anything "custom" throwing their 2 cents in like pretty much every other internet gun forum on Earth has been for 20 years , it's not like this place is different

 

[Okurok]

I'm going to leave some food for thoughts here. As I understand, traditional muzzleloading was almost dead 100 years ago. There began to grow an interest in the archaic, impractical and misunderstood subject of black powder muzzleloading. It grew from into a true grassroot movement of men that were inspired and motivated to find a way to participate in something they were passionate about. As I understand, there wasn't a lot of options available to these men but they made a way and blazed a path for future generations. In their basements and garages and with the scantest of resources they began to recreate and started a revolution that today we reap the benefits from. I feel like the real loss is the loss of that spirit. These men left us a legacy that few of the people in this hobby still possess. That's the real tragedy. If you can't buy it, make it. If you can't afford it, make it or make do. You can still buy a 300$ used Lyman or TC. It costs about 10$ to make a leather pouch out of repurposed leather. I have more respect for a skinny kid with a cheap generic sidelock running around in the woods in a synthetic coonskin cap living out a dream that he read out of a Buckskinner, Allan Eckert, or foxfire book he got from the library than I do for someone who can afford a perfectly researched rifle made by a well respected builder. I'm no longer that kid and I can afford any rifle out there that I would be interested in. I'll never be more excited about a gun than the day when there was a brown ups box sitting on the kitchen table when I got home from school containing a Lyman Trade Rifle from Dixie Gun Works that I had saved my chore money for. Believe it or not there is still a lot of young people out there that are or would be interested given half a chance. It's never been easier or more accessible. Here in western Colorado fast food joints are paying 18 to 20$ per hour for help. That's 80 hours for a Kibler, 160 hours for a custom, 320 hours for the nicest rifle most of us would want. I know that not everyone makes great money, but if you're circumstances are normal there are evening part time jobs that you can get that would allow you to get something very nice in a year. If that's too much of a sacrifice then you really don't want it. It may not be like 70 years ago but neither is the average person in America like they were 70 years ago.

BTW this is what I tell myself every time I get grumpy about current events. I went from I can't afford it to building a leman trade rifle, a Tennessee squirrel rifle 80% done, several projects that I'm researching. When I started 12 years ago, I couldn't afford the price of the parts or so I thought. I bought a GRRW barrel from a classified ad from a son of a man that used to work at GRRW and had passed away. I showed it to a friend of gunsmith friend of mine that used to build similar rifles back in Dodge City KS in the 80's with a group of amateur gun builders. He gave me a piece of maple that came from some bridge planks he had found back east somewhere that had some figure in the wood. I bought a breech plug from TOTW and he showed me how to inlet the barrel. I would go over every Thursday evening and we would sit around shooting the bull and do a little work on the rifle. I saved a little money every week and by the time the barrel was inlet, I had enough money for a L&R trade lock. We made the sights, and lugs, and I bought parts and pieces to finish the rifle. With all the starts and stops life brings, and having time in the winter months it took 8 years to build the rifle. During that time it changed my life. It quit being about having a rifle and learning a discipline. Life is much different know. I can buy whatever I want but I would rather dream about it and think that I'll build it in time. I don't have a rack of rifles I used to covet but I enjoy our hobby more than ever.

I wish our hobby had more DIYers like the ones I grew up reading about. That's the real heart of the sport. If the heart is missing, that's when the sport dies. 1000 people passionate about something is better than 1 million armchair quarterbacks.

 

[64Springer]

Most professional gun makers won't hang out in what's basically a chat room full of cranky old dudes that would probably tell them how to do their jobs because they built a CVA kit in '72

Most buyers of $20,000 Kentucky rifles probably don't hang out here either

So you get to endure the nonsense of people who aren't even involved in anything "custom" throwing their 2 cents in like pretty much every other internet gun forum on Earth has been for 20 years , it's not like this place is different

That is a horrible falsehood cast upon the internet gun forum community and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Only 13 years has been spent on Ballistol, patch thicknesses, stuck balls and bore cleaning methods.

The remaining 7 years has been devoted to Kibler fanboyism.

 

[64Springer]

I wish our hobby had more DIYers like the ones I grew up reading about. That's the real heart of the sport. If the heart is missing, that's when the sport dies. 1000 people passionate about something is better than 1 million armchair quarterbacks.

Damn Skippy.

 

[Stantheman86]

That is a horrible falsehood cast upon the internet gun forum community and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Only 13 years has been spent on Ballistol, patch thicknesses, stuck balls and bore cleaning methods.

The remaining 7 years has been devoted to Kibler fanboyism.

Also 20 years of complaints of Piettas being "garbage " or people who found a CVA Hawken in a dumpster and it shoots 1" at 300 yards

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm going to leave some food for thoughts here. As I understand, traditional muzzleloading was almost dead 100 years ago. There began to grow an interest in the archaic, impractical and misunderstood subject of black powder muzzleloading. It grew from into a true grassroot movement of men that were inspired and motivated to find a way to participate in something they were passionate about. As I understand, there wasn't a lot of options available to these men but they made a way and blazed a path for future generations. In their basements and garages and with the scantest of resources they began to recreate and started a revolution that today we reap the benefits from. I feel like the real loss is the loss of that spirit. These men left us a legacy that few of the people in this hobby still possess. That's the real tragedy. If you can't buy it, make it. If you can't afford it, make it or make do. You can still buy a 300$ used Lyman or TC. It costs about 10$ to make a leather pouch out of repurposed leather. I have more respect for a skinny kid with a cheap generic sidelock running around in the woods in a synthetic coonskin cap living out a dream that he read out of a Buckskinner, Allan Eckert, or foxfire book he got from the library than I do for someone who can afford a perfectly researched rifle made by a well respected builder. I'm no longer that kid and I can afford any rifle out there that I would be interested in. I'll never be more excited about a gun than the day when there was a brown ups box sitting on the kitchen table when I got home from school containing a Lyman Trade Rifle from Dixie Gun Works that I had saved my chore money for. Believe it or not there is still a lot of young people out there that are or would be interested given half a chance. It's never been easier or more accessible. Here in western Colorado fast food joints are paying 18 to 20$ per hour for help. That's 80 hours for a Kibler, 160 hours for a custom, 320 hours for the nicest rifle most of us would want. I know that not everyone makes great money, but if you're circumstances are normal there are evening part time jobs that you can get that would allow you to get something very nice in a year. If that's too much of a sacrifice then you really don't want it. It may not be like 70 years ago but neither is the average person in America like they were 70 years ago.

BTW this is what I tell myself every time I get grumpy about current events. I went from I can't afford it to building a leman trade rifle, a Tennessee squirrel rifle 80% done, several projects that I'm researching. When I started 12 years ago, I couldn't afford the price of the parts or so I thought. I bought a GRRW barrel from a classified ad from a son of a man that used to work at GRRW and had passed away. I showed it to a friend of gunsmith friend of mine that used to build similar rifles back in Dodge City KS in the 80's with a group of amateur gun builders. He gave me a piece of maple that came from some bridge planks he had found back east somewhere that had some figure in the wood. I bought a breech plug from TOTW and he showed me how to inlet the barrel. I would go over every Thursday evening and we would sit around shooting the bull and do a little work on the rifle. I saved a little money every week and by the time the barrel was inlet, I had enough money for a L&R trade lock. We made the sights, and lugs, and I bought parts and pieces to finish the rifle. With all the starts and stops life brings, and having time in the winter months it took 8 years to build the rifle. During that time it changed my life. It quit being about having a rifle and learning a discipline. Life is much different know. I can buy whatever I want but I would rather dream about it and think that I'll build it in time. I don't have a rack of rifles I used to covet but I enjoy our hobby more than ever.

I wish our hobby had more DIYers like the ones I grew up reading about. That's the real heart of the sport. If the heart is missing, that's when the sport dies. 1000 people passionate about something is better than 1 million armchair quarterbacks.

American Muzzleloading was brought back by the Civil War Centennial, Jeremiah Johnson, Spaghetti Westerns and Clint Eastwood. Which started an entire industry in Italy cranking out mass produced repro muzzleloaders. Generous gun laws here allowed us to keep enjoying them even if the "golden revival" of muzzleloading is waning.

Custom builders have always been around for the people who want custom guns. I've seen high end Pennsylvania rifles made in the 1920's, well after the "period". People always want cool stuff

That goes for anything. There's a shirt factory near me that makes $500 handmade, high end button down shirts that celebrities wear. How many of us own a $500 shirt?

You can buy a Harley off the showroom floor or pay for a Custom. My coworker has a $70,000 custom chopper, that probably some shop that does 20 or so per year made for him. He wanted it and he paid.

You want a $10,000 Hawken? There will be someone who will happily take your money to provide you with one. Will these guys have someone to take the reigns when they're too old to do it, or they pass away? Who knows, maybe not. Bobby Hoyt is getting up there, does he have an apprentice? Most likely not. When he passes his art will be gone forever. No one can fill these guys shoes.