Will the bottom fall out of the custom build business?

[Okie Hog]

i haven't done any research into the demand for custom muzzleloading rifles. Judging from the long waiting period for an ordered custom rifle, there are few people actually engaged in building same.

Never had any desire for an expensive custom muzzleloader. Would rather own a nice plain original muzzleloading rifle that i could hunt with.

For decades i owned a muzzleloader built entirely by Hacker Martin; killed a few deer with that rifle. A close relative owns and hunts with that rifle today.

 

[springfield art]

i haven't done any research into the demand for custom muzzleloading rifles. Judging from the long waiting period for an ordered custom rifle, there are few people actually engaged in building same.

Never had any desire for an expensive custom muzzleloader. Would rather own a nice plain original muzzleloading rifle that i could hunt with.

For decades i owned a muzzleloader built entirely by Hacker Martin; killed a few deer with that rifle. A close relative owns and hunts with that rifle today.

Hacker Martin! Wow. Legendary name. Good!

 

[chorizo]

Another continuation of my observation:

In Spain, as the production guns dried up, there was a vibrant market for used (and abused) guns and an equally vibrant industry of refreshing/remaking/restocking those guns. You could buy a solid, but in rough condition SxS for $300 and for another $500 have it reworked back to great condition. But as demand went up for those guns, so did the prices and again wait times went up...then the inevitable happened. The supply of guns that could be rework dwindled. Prices rose. The folks that reworked those guns started to retire and prices went up and it became no longer attractive to rework guns.

Same is happening here. Check out parts and prices for ML guns on EBay and gunbroker. Notice the lack of new stocks and drop in barrels. Notice that Mr. Hoyt has stopped taking barrels for rebore because he has too much work and that the other barrel guys are starting to price out of reasonableness.

In short, it is happening here in our sport.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Very well put.

Awesome post, thanks!

 

[DCAN]

I can't see where the future generations are going to care at all about anything to do with historical weapons. After all, they have been taught our history is evil and racist. Like others have said, it is all about instant gratification. If something takes time and effort to master, well that's not going to happen. Too many man buns and double soy lattes.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

My sons, nieces and nephews can't even spell the word Firearm.

The younger generation has no interest in guns.

When I die, that's it.

Hello Captain Crunch.

You are half correct in my opinion. Most of the young generation is only interested in sports and their phone. Muzzleloading gun interest seem to be declining, but GUNS I believe will always have interest.
Larry

 

[david w]

It may be all in vein, but we should all insist that the muzzleloading season should only be for traditional muzzleloaders only. Inlines NOT ALLOWED!

 

[TDM]

I’m fortunate that both my grown sons enjoy shooting. My oldest is very active in ML and my youngest will as time allows. They both work hard and stay very busy. And I did introduce my 11 year old granddaughter to ML this past weekend, posted some photos of it. But of all my personal friends and acquaintances, we are the only ones that do. I think the biggest hurdle for old and new shooters is finding a place to shoot. Our Louisiana home is rural enough that my boys could shoot growing up and we belonged to a hunting club most of the time. But even in Louisiana and Mississippi it’s been decades since you could drive out in the country and find unposted land to shoot on and club shooting ranges are few and far between. Of course for us, having a place to hunt and shoot is not a problem, but it’s a real stumbling block for most. I also think that people now a days lack the passion to do anything that requires effort. And now a days it requires that effort to participate in ML.

 

[user 34300]

I think the future of high quality MLs is CNC as done by Kibler. The old school rough casting sets and wonkie pantograph stocks have had their day. They are very difficult to work with. That is why the quotes to build them are so high.

 

[Hawk54]

when people buy custom guns they do it because they want something specific to them. They want a gun that is suitable to their taste and needs and I doubt resail value is a concern. I would be willing to bet most would prefer to hand down the rifle than to sell it when the time comes.

But the point the OP is making is this isn't about us who buy specific to us according to our likes but the people coming up who don't want to or don't care to buy custom weapons. They may be interested enough for a peek into the hobby by buying a TC or CVA. We grew up with F$I War, Rev War and old west series and movies that influenced out taste in period weapons, clothing, reenacting, etc. The kids over the last fifteen years or more for the most part don't really care for that stuff and it will definitely could cause a major change in the availability of above mentioned products as the demand could diminish to a great degree. It will never go away completely. As far as what we have being passed down. Handing down is great if the person you are leaving it too values it for other than sentimental reasons. Most everyones stuff will be either relegated to a closet to rust or be sold before you are cold in the ground with little regard to value. I have friends who set up and sell estates and have done so for many years. They will tell you the vast majority of the people are only interested in the cash value of a majority of the stuff left behind.

I used to go to schools and set up displays for Civil War through WW2. Kids were fascinated by the gear and such. That went the way of the dinosaurs. They won't even allow most of the stuff into the schools now. WW2 reenacting was a big thing in the 80's though 90's. We had a lot of big events here in the midwest and east. You could go to battles and living history events almost every weekend somewhere. Almost nonexistent now. A lot of things factor into the decline. Cost and availability of blanks. Serious increase in the cost of weapons and gear. The collecting base has mostly disappeared. Travel costs. But mostly the younger adults just aren't interested enough to become involved. They have not been exposed to the history like we were and especially the people who participated in some of these periods. Not taught in schools much either. Easy to say get them involved but much harder to do as the experienced knowledgeable older guys drop out of a hobby.

When I was a kid I knew people who fought in the Spanish American War and people who were alive in the 1870's. Those people could tell you about people they knew who were alive in the rendezvous times. All the WW1 people are dead and most of the WW2 are gone. Korean War veterans are few. Even a lot of the early Vietnam vets are gone. Not many people left to pass on the stories and spark interest. A lot of people don't want to accept the changes we see as a lot of those changes don't bode well for the future but they are what they are. People are fascinated at living history events. I have done many Civil war through WW2 events and people love looking at the equipment and asking questions. Brings history to life for them. But that is pretty much the only real exposure many of them will have to what we like and do. Just keep trying to keep people interested and history alive.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

It may be all in vein, but we should all insist that the muzzleloading season should only be for traditional muzzleloaders only. Inlines NOT ALLOWED!

I disagree with this notion. The more hunters and shooters there are, the better. I don't care if the dude in the next woodlot is carrying an inline or not, It doesn't really matter to me. He can shoot his deer at 150 yards if he is able, I will shoot mine at fifty yards and the younger dude can help me drag it out of the woods. I have an inline.... which I rarely shoot, but I got one. No place in this declining area for gun snobs.

 

[Flint Striker]

I've never been interested in purchasing a custom rifle/musket mostly because they don't pass my personal cost/value/enjoyment scale threshold. When I buy expensive arms they are generally historic or investments. However, I can appreciate true craftsmanship when I see it and I find no fault in what others do with their money based on their own personal value scale. But when I read through the various opinions on this forum and others about the future state of the hobby, I wonder whether the value of an expensive custom rifle/musket is holding up, or will hold up over time. I'm not referring to Gusler from scratch builds or the like, but to the custom longarms from builders that source and use basically the same high-quality locks and barrels that are available to all of them and sell those $3K/$4K/$5k+ flintlocks. Seems to me that type of custom build that is valued primarily on its craftsmanship will not have much of a future market to maintain that value. Especially, as more and more come to market.

For those who have an interest and buy or have sold those types of custom longarms, have you seen any impacts in the resale or purchase prices over the last few years? Are prices relatively stable and fewer of the best builders are actually doing business? Is it the complete opposite, with market, value, and, prices increasing? Or, are there other dynamics at play?

It actually motivates me to pay attention and get some of the guns I’d like now. A couple celebrated builders have passed away pretty recently - there’s no guarantee that you’ll always just be able to order the gun you want from someone who’s spent decades building them. Even once common production guns are hard to find and carry a premium.

 

[david w]

I disagree with this notion. The more hunters and shooters there are, the better. I don't care if the dude in the next woodlot is carrying an inline or not, It doesn't really matter to me. He can shoot his deer at 150 yards if he is able, I will shoot mine at fifty yards and the younger dude can help me drag it out of the woods. I have an inline.... which I rarely shoot, but I got one. No place in this declining area for gun snobs.

If I choose to be a gun snob, that's my business!

 

[Nuthatch]

I'm involved with a non-profit conservation group that has a lot of younger guys among it's members. In fact, I'm part of the old guy crew and I'm only in my 40s. Most of the young guys I've met aren't lazy. Far from it -- they're insanely dedicated & will do immense amounts of work for the same deer or elk that too many old guys get from the seat of a pickup truck. But, time is at a premium. For those that have an interest in muzzleloaders, the modern type rifle is as practical a choice as a compound bow. One is far more likely to make you meat with the least amount of work, fuss or knowledge so you can spend your time working on things like woodsmanship, locations, stalking skills, glassing skills, etc. If you have 1 opportunity a year to get your buck and usually less than that, what are you going to carry with you? When the time finally comes to make your shot, are you going to want more certainty or less? The industry created those modern unmentionable rifles because they are more reliable, require less knowledge and shoot more like CF rifles than traditional MLs. It's a purely practical choice. Those special seasons are designed to give special access to those who choose to limit themselves. But, the industry pushes hard to eliminate those limits as much as they can in hopes of greater sales. And they have largely succeeded. People are people. Business is business.

But what I see among traditional archers these days gives me hope about MLs too. Even my local archery shop owner, who I once overheard bragging about his 80-yard compound shot on a deer, has switched to traditional. He likes the $1k+ custom bows. I shoot the Chinese knock-offs. But plenty of others are making their own stickbows (done that myself as well). I hope something similar will happen with MLs too. Often, things go in cycles. It may cycle back again.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

If I choose to be a gun snob, that's my business!

Absolutely sir!

 

[SOLANCO]

There is something in guns that appeals to us. And specific types of guns have specific enthusiasts. Although I am more of a generalist. Lovely Emig long rifle on the LR wall. But if the wife would have it, I'd give pride of place on the floor to a MA Deuce on tripod or a Stokes mortar.

People collect objects which they call art. Clearly, some guns are works of art. And I don't believe a gun needs engravings and inlays to be a work of art.

 

[david w]

There is something in guns that appeals to us. And specific types of guns have specific enthusiasts. Although I am more of a generalist. Lovely Emig long rifle on the LR wall. But if the wife would have it, I'd give pride of place on the floor to a MA Deuce on tripod or a Stokes mortar.

People collect objects which they call art. Clearly, some guns are works of art. And I don't believe a gun needs engravings and inlays to be a work of art.

The only gun I ever had that was ornate was a Bedford County rifle. Now, it had a Hoppy Hopkins barrel on it which was very accurate, but I also have a Hoppy Hopkins barrel on my plain full stock Hawken. It is just as accurate without all the do-dads. That Bedford County sure was pretty, though!

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

There are many good points made here. I have seen some declines, but honestly, when I worked in a retail gun shop, I had more cheap used in-lines than I ever wanted to see. My boss hated the side-hammer guns, so when I went up to his store, I grabbed all I could get for my store. Flintlocks were rare, but I sold them all within a couple of weeks, be they T/C, CVA or something else. A rare custom gun would go quickly, though I never really saw the 2K plus guns.

Now there was a time that I lived through where you could not give away a flintlock or a side-hammer caplock. Only the Knight and later on the T/C, CVA and higher end Austin & Halleck guns would sell without major effort. Even during those times though, I could still sell the traditional guns.

I also remember a time when nobody wanted AR platform guns... those suckers, made only by Colt in those days... were expensive at $300.00! Times changed.

There are still people using vintage cameras and making Daguerreotypes just like Matthew Brady did during the Civil War era. Others use Leica screw-mount cameras, vintage Nikons and even Minox spy cameras.... and there are still people who process film in the digital age.

There are more blacksmiths around now than there were in 1950. It made a resurgence right about the time that most smiths were retired or dead thanks largely to a man named Alex Bealer who wrote The Art of Blacksmithing before all the smiths died out. I am proud to say I was one of his "students" in that I bought his book and assembled a smithy.

The point that I am trying to make (albeit doing a poor job) is that nothing ever really goes away permanently. There will always be people shooting muzzleloaders and people who make and service them. Some time after Elon Musk gets his Mars colony started, eventually somebody will build and shoot a flintlock on another planet. I will likely never live to see that day, but I sincerely hope there is one day a reenactment on Mars... even if the participants have to wear an environment suit.

Yeah, I know I'm crazy, and they're comin' to take me a way hee hee hoo hoo to the funny farm...

 

[Hawk54]

I disagree with this notion. The more hunters and shooters there are, the better. I don't care if the dude in the next woodlot is carrying an inline or not, It doesn't really matter to me. He can shoot his deer at 150 yards if he is able, I will shoot mine at fifty yards and the younger dude can help me drag it out of the woods. I have an inline.... which I rarely shoot, but I got one. No place in this declining area for gun snobs.

Agree. An inline loads from the front like a Hawken. If they are willing to shooting an inline I would think they might be more easily be persuaded to transition into a traditional type weapon. Inlines also help keep the black powder, bullet, and accessories business going.

 

[Electrod47]

Anybody who can afford a custom rifle costing 4,000+ is not worried about how much he can sell it for. Hell, His buddy's are probably bugging him to sell it to them for even more. Birds of a feather. Not a problem for most of us.