Will the bottom fall out of the custom build business?

[david w]

Well, you guys shoot what you want, but I wish you would take your in-line discussions the the sister site.

 

[Billy Boy]

I've never been interested in purchasing a custom rifle/musket mostly because they don't pass my personal cost/value/enjoyment scale threshold. When I buy expensive arms they are generally historic or investments. However, I can appreciate true craftsmanship when I see it and I find no fault in what others do with their money based on their own personal value scale. But when I read through the various opinions on this forum and others about the future state of the hobby, I wonder whether the value of an expensive custom rifle/musket is holding up, or will hold up over time. I'm not referring to Gusler from scratch builds or the like, but to the custom longarms from builders that source and use basically the same high-quality locks and barrels that are available to all of them and sell those $3K/$4K/$5k+ flintlocks. Seems to me that type of custom build that is valued primarily on its craftsmanship will not have much of a future market to maintain that value. Especially, as more and more come to market.

For those who have an interest and buy or have sold those types of custom longarms, have you seen any impacts in the resale or purchase prices over the last few years? Are prices relatively stable and fewer of the best builders are actually doing business? Is it the complete opposite, with market, value, and, prices increasing? Or, are there other dynamics at play?

I’m waiting for the bottom to fall out of the ladies swimsuit business..

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Well, you guys shoot what you want, but I wish you would take your in-line discussions the the sister site.

I suppose we will, just like you do, but I think you mentioned the unmentionable first and we are not really discussing the unmentionables here just the politics surrounding them. Mentioning an unmentionable is not really a discussion about unmentionables. Did I use the word "unmentionable" enough here? I fired my only unmentionable just over a year ago and have no real plans to shoot it again any time soon as I discovered that I really didn't like it all that much... too much trouble to clean, doesn't fit me very well and it came with a scope that I don't really like on the gun.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I’m waiting for the bottom to fall out of the ladies swimsuit business..

One can only hope...

 

[DCAN]

I'm involved with a non-profit conservation group that has a lot of younger guys among it's members. In fact, I'm part of the old guy crew and I'm only in my 40s. Most of the young guys I've met aren't lazy. Far from it -- they're insanely dedicated & will do immense amounts of work for the same deer or elk that too many old guys get from the seat of a pickup truck. But, time is at a premium. For those that have an interest in muzzleloaders, the modern type rifle is as practical a choice as a compound bow. One is far more likely to make you meat with the least amount of work, fuss or knowledge so you can spend your time working on things like woodsmanship, locations, stalking skills, glassing skills, etc. If you have 1 opportunity a year to get your buck and usually less than that, what are you going to carry with you? When the time finally comes to make your shot, are you going to want more certainty or less? The industry created those modern unmentionable rifles because they are more reliable, require less knowledge and shoot more like CF rifles than traditional MLs. It's a purely practical choice. Those special seasons are designed to give special access to those who choose to limit themselves. But, the industry pushes hard to eliminate those limits as much as they can in hopes of greater sales. And they have largely succeeded. People are people. Business is business.

But what I see among traditional archers these days gives me hope about MLs too. Even my local archery shop owner, who I once overheard bragging about his 80-yard compound shot on a deer, has switched to traditional. He likes the $1k+ custom bows. I shoot the Chinese knock-offs. But plenty of others are making their own stickbows (done that myself as well). I hope something similar will happen with MLs too. Often, things go in cycles. It may cycle back again.

I certainly hope things do cycle back. I used to help teach hunters ed and it was enlightening to see the attitudes of the next generation of hunters as the came through the classes. I've come to the conclusion that by making something easier, to draw more to the sport, sell more licenses and tags, whatever, a disproportionate number of less desirable individuals show up. I've seen this in archery as well as gun hunters. When I was working my job put me in the field, in contact with hundreds of hunters. Years of contacts led me to my opinion.

 

[david w]

I suppose we will, just like you do, but I think you mentioned the unmentionable first and we are not really discussing the unmentionables here just the politics surrounding them. Mentioning an unmentionable is not really a discussion about unmentionables. Did I use the word "unmentionable" enough here? I fired my only unmentionable just over a year ago and have no real plans to shoot it again any time soon as I discovered that I really didn't like it all that much... too much trouble to clean, doesn't fit me very well and it came with a scope that I don't really like on the gun.

My comment was only to bring up a point that only traditional firearms should be used in a true muzzleloader season. When muzzleloading seasons first started, Thomson Center made big bucks selling finished rifles and kits. No guns were available with plastic stocks, scoped, and using unmentionable bullets surrounded in plastic.
The true intent of the muzzleloading season has become bastardized. That's the way I feel about it, if someone chooses to disagree, it's there prerogative.

 

[64Springer]

If I choose to be a gun snob, that's my business!

The problem with many Gun Snobs is they think their own little slice of the Second Amendment pie is the only slice that matters.

They're perfectly content with other guns being banned or marginalized.

Many of them are fine with grabbing and confiscation just as long as it's not their slice of the 2A pie that's being grabbed and confiscated.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I started building custom flintlock guns full time for a living in 1996. Never lacked for business, in fact I was generally overwhelmed with orders. Sometimes as many as 36 behind. About 2015 my body started falling apart, got a shoulder rebuild in '17. I stopped taking orders about that time and it took me untill 2022 to clear most of it away. I had hit the wall, total burn out. I haven't built a gun in a year.
If I wanted to and was capable of building guns again, I could probably easily pick up a couple dozen orders in a couple months. But that ain't happening. I hope to build myself a few guns in the next few years and that's it.
The only thing that will kill the custom gun trade is the coming financial collapse.

 

[david w]

The problem with many Gun Snobs is they think their own little slice of the Second Amendment pie is the only slice that matters.

They're perfectly content with other guns being banned or marginalized.

Many of them are fine with grabbing and confiscation just as long as it's not their slice of the 2A pie that's being grabbed and confiscated.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. The original name for muzzleloading season was the "primitive" season. Much like, if there is a season for primitive bows, no one should not use compounds or recurves, only long bows. Nor should they use steel points, only knapped arrowheads. Oh, by the way, I go for the entire 2nd amendment, not little slices. Just wanted to make that absolutely clear.

 

[64Springer]

It has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. The original name for muzzleloading season was the "primitive" season. Mch like, if there is a season for primitive bows, one should not use compounds or recurves. Nor should they use steel points, only knapped arrowheads.

What's that old saying?

I remember. I'd see my sisters in a Tiajuana who re house before I gave up hunting with my compound bow during bow season.

There's history and period correctness and then there's taking history and period correctness a tad too far.

Should we all disrobe from our modern hunting cloths and run around the woods in deer skin loincloths during "Real" bow season?

 

[david w]

What's that old saying?

I remember. I'd see my sisters in a Tiajuana who re house before I gave up hunting with my compound bow during bow season.

There's history and period correctness and then there's taking history and period correctness a tad too far.

Should we all disrobe from our modern hunting cloths and run around the woods in deer skin loincloths during "Real" bow season?

I hunted in deer skin a few times.

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

I think the Kibler kits will hurt the high end gun builders. Why would anyone want to contract a builder to build you a custom gun for $1500 ( and up ) and wait a year or so to get it when you can order a Kibler kit for $1200. and build it yourself.

You have to wait 2-3 weeks to get your kit that can build in a weekend or two with minimal tools required. You'll have a rifle that is well build by yourself with top notch parts you can pass down to your children.

It doesn't get much better than that.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I guess I don't understand what has everyone riled up over what somebody else chooses to hunt with. If someone else kills a deer with an unmentionable, how does it affect another hunter who chooses to hunt with a flintlock? Right now we NEED as many hunters and shooters banded together as possible to defeat the left's anti-gun agenda.

In terms you might understand, I will quote Benjamin Franklin,"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Another quote:

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

... Lutheran Pastor Martin Niemöller

It would be easy to paraphrase Pastor Niemöller's work here or Mr. Franklin's, but I think they both speak for themselves really. I can stand beside men with unmentionables just as easily as I can with men who wear grey uniforms and carry traditional rifled muskets. I cannot stand with men who would try to ban my short-barreled muzzleloader for nothing more than political reasons having more to do with controlling us than they do with anything else.

Pastor Niemöller and Mr. Franklin would likely disagree on many subjects, based upon their writings, but I'm pretty sure this is one thing they could agree with and get behind us on.

Again, there is no place in this battle for gun snobs.

 

[Flint Striker]

I think the Kibler kits will hurt the high end gun builders. Why would anyone want to contract a builder to build you a custom gun for $1500 ( and up ) and wait a year or so to get it when you can order a Kibler kit for $1200. and build it yourself.

You have to wait 2-3 weeks to get your kit that can build in a weekend or two with minimal tools required. You'll have a rifle that is well build by yourself with top notch parts you can pass down to your children.

It doesn't get much better than that.

There’s some truth to that, and we are lucky to have an option like the Kibler kits available today. But there’s often a level of skill and experience that makes a big difference in how a kit turns out too. I think we’ve all seen kits that were butchered by ham-fisted nincompoops. Sometimes it’s harder to fix one than it is to just start over from scratch.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I think the Kibler kits will hurt the high end gun builders. Why would anyone want to contract a builder to build you a custom gun for $1500 ( and up ) and wait a year or so to get it when you can order a Kibler kit for $1200. and build it yourself.

You have to wait 2-3 weeks to get your kit that can build in a weekend or two with minimal tools required. You'll have a rifle that is well build by yourself with top notch parts you can pass down to your children.

It doesn't get much better than that.

The Kibler kits are not custom rifles though. The lines and architecture of them, though appealing, are the same, and if one of them is in a rack it is instantly recognizable as being a Kibler gun, even with embellishments.

 

[NorthFork]

Oh Boy!

I have my asbestos lined flame suit on, so bring it!

It is my belief that within 20 years or less, traditional muzzleloading will die out to a very tiny smoldering ember akin to the 1890 to 1920 era. Only a few select diehards will cling to their precious perc. cap and flint locks. And I MEAN VERY FEW folks. No one, and I mean NO ONE gives a hoot about muzzleloading. Yes you have a growing sport of inlines, but 98% of them will NEVER graduate to something resembling a traditional arm. ATK/Vista/CCI are NOT making caps right now. Dynamit Nobel (RWS) has suggested importation of caps to N. America is not likely to happen anytime soon. The folks who make our locks, barrels and stocks are old and dying. Morbid? Yes. But truthful. NMLRA membership is falling fast. And it's not all due to the politics of the NMLRA. It's due to the average age of diehard muzzleloaders. These folks are dying off with no new blood to replace them. It's a sad state of affairs. This is bigger than a few folks building guns and if the guns will hold value. Our very sport is in the balance. Younger folks who 40 years ago would possibly have had an interest in the sport, have absolutely no interest in 'yucky' and 'gross' gun stuff. At the outdoor lodge I have been a member of for nearly 20 years now, we can't beg or bribe youth to become interested in shooting, hunting, or trapping. I know we HAVE TRIED at no cost to the youth or youth's parents. I was born in 1974. I am part of the X Generation. Firearm oriented sports die with the X generation in this Country.

 

[chorizo]

@NorthFork While I don't agree with all you had to say, I do agree with yoru time line of 20 years. Our supplies are tight and it is increasingly more difficult to get them, Who would think that in Boise, ID you would have to order out of state from Grafs to get BP. Caps.....same. And our State doesn't allow in-lines for muzzleloader hunting.

Yes, indeed we are members of a dying sport.

 

[52Bore]

A good original will always be where the $$$ is.
A kit will always be a kit.
Custom gunmakers today are not different than gunmakers of the day - some better than others..

 

[david w]

@NorthFork While I don't agree with all you had to say, I do agree with yoru time line of 20 years. Our supplies are tight and it is increasingly more difficult to get them, Who would think that in Boise, ID you would have to order out of state from Grafs to get BP. Caps.....same. And our State doesn't allow in-lines for muzzleloader hunting.

Yes, indeed we are members of a dying sport.

Idaho has a good law. I wish Arkansas was anti-inline. Pennsylvania has the best law, flintlock only season!

 

[chorizo]

When you have to troll Ebay or beg others for conicals if you don't cast, troll forums and ebay for spare parts, pay excessive shipping fees to get powder and caps and either buy poorly maintained used guns and get them redone or buy custom guns, things aren't looking pretty.