Will the bottom fall out of the custom build business?

[Comfortably_Numb]

I'm going to leave some food for thoughts here. As I understand, traditional muzzleloading was almost dead 100 years ago. There began to grow an interest in the archaic, impractical and misunderstood subject of black powder muzzleloading. It grew from into a true grassroot movement of men that were inspired and motivated to find a way to participate in something they were passionate about. As I understand, there wasn't a lot of options available to these men but they made a way and blazed a path for future generations. In their basements and garages and with the scantest of resources they began to recreate and started a revolution that today we reap the benefits from. I feel like the real loss is the loss of that spirit. These men left us a legacy that few of the people in this hobby still possess. That's the real tragedy. If you can't buy it, make it. If you can't afford it, make it or make do. You can still buy a 300$ used Lyman or TC. It costs about 10$ to make a leather pouch out of repurposed leather. I have more respect for a skinny kid with a cheap generic sidelock running around in the woods in a synthetic coonskin cap living out a dream that he read out of a Buckskinner, Allan Eckert, or foxfire book he got from the library than I do for someone who can afford a perfectly researched rifle made by a well respected builder. I'm no longer that kid and I can afford any rifle out there that I would be interested in. I'll never be more excited about a gun than the day when there was a brown ups box sitting on the kitchen table when I got home from school containing a Lyman Trade Rifle from Dixie Gun Works that I had saved my chore money for. Believe it or not there is still a lot of young people out there that are or would be interested given half a chance. It's never been easier or more accessible. Here in western Colorado fast food joints are paying 18 to 20$ per hour for help. That's 80 hours for a Kibler, 160 hours for a custom, 320 hours for the nicest rifle most of us would want. I know that not everyone makes great money, but if you're circumstances are normal there are evening part time jobs that you can get that would allow you to get something very nice in a year. If that's too much of a sacrifice then you really don't want it. It may not be like 70 years ago but neither is the average person in America like they were 70 years ago.

BTW this is what I tell myself every time I get grumpy about current events. I went from I can't afford it to building a leman trade rifle, a Tennessee squirrel rifle 80% done, several projects that I'm researching. When I started 12 years ago, I couldn't afford the price of the parts or so I thought. I bought a GRRW barrel from a classified ad from a son of a man that used to work at GRRW and had passed away. I showed it to a friend of gunsmith friend of mine that used to build similar rifles back in Dodge City KS in the 80's with a group of amateur gun builders. He gave me a piece of maple that came from some bridge planks he had found back east somewhere that had some figure in the wood. I bought a breech plug from TOTW and he showed me how to inlet the barrel. I would go over every Thursday evening and we would sit around shooting the bull and do a little work on the rifle. I saved a little money every week and by the time the barrel was inlet, I had enough money for a L&R trade lock. We made the sights, and lugs, and I bought parts and pieces to finish the rifle. With all the starts and stops life brings, and having time in the winter months it took 8 years to build the rifle. During that time it changed my life. It quit being about having a rifle and learning a discipline. Life is much different know. I can buy whatever I want but I would rather dream about it and think that I'll build it in time. I don't have a rack of rifles I used to covet but I enjoy our hobby more than ever.

I wish our hobby had more DIYers like the ones I grew up reading about. That's the real heart of the sport. If the heart is missing, that's when the sport dies. 1000 people passionate about something is better than 1 million armchair quarterbacks.

Does anybody have the Cliff's Notes version of this? Ain't no way I'm reading all of that.

 

[Stantheman86]

Custom gunmakers most likely do probably quietly lurk on the gun forums, to get a feel for the market like any smart businessman would do

But they also are smart enough not to jump into dumpster fire arguments or draw negative attention.

Jim Kibler is probably reading every word of this thread

 

[Stantheman86]

Does anybody have the Cliff's Notes version of this? Ain't no way I'm reading all of that.

The TL, DR is basically, if you want nice stuff, anyone who is motivated can save $$ and get it for themselves

 

[64Springer]

Custom gunmakers most likely do probably quietly lurk on the gun forums, to get a feel for the market like any smart businessman would do

But they also are smart enough not to jump into dumpster fire arguments or draw negative attention.

Jim Kibler is probably reading every word of this thread

Mr. Kibler is a talented entrepreneur who certainly found the right niche.

 

[Okurok]

American Muzzleloading was brought back by the Civil War Centennial, Jeremiah Johnson, Spaghetti Westerns and Clint Eastwood. Which started an entire industry in Italy cranking out mass produced repro muzzleloaders. Generous gun laws here allowed us to keep enjoying them even if the "golden revival" of muzzleloading is waning.

Custom builders have always been around for the people who want custom guns. I've seen high end Pennsylvania rifles made in the 1920's, well after the "period". People always want cool stuff

That goes for anything. There's a shirt factory near me that makes $500 handmade, high end button down shirts that celebrities wear. How many of us own a $500 shirt?

You can buy a Harley off the showroom floor or pay for a Custom. My coworker has a $70,000 custom chopper, that probably some shop that does 20 or so per year made for him. He wanted it and he paid.

You want a $10,000 Hawken? There will be someone who will happily take your money to provide you with one. Will these guys have someone to take the reigns when they're too old to do it, or they pass away? Who knows, maybe not. Bobby Hoyt is getting up there, does he have an apprentice? Most likely not. When he passes his art will be gone forever. No one can fill these guys shoes.

I agree. The fire was fanned by popular culture of that time. It's unlikely we'll see such a time in the near future. That being said I'm perfectly happy with the current conditions. I have more than enough black powder, caps, and supplies to keep me and my fellow shooters going. I have enough supplies to make several rifles. Plenty of books to keep me dreaming and enough fellow enthusiasts in my area to enjoy shooting with. Multiple online sites to order a great range of parts. If I wasn't constantly told otherwise I would think I was in the golden age of muzzleloading. If it changes, then I will have a chance to learn how to make something else that I want. I love seeing the pictures of gunsmiths of yesteryear. They did much with often very little. What makes men great is the passion and dedication that they bring.

I also think unrealistic expectations is killing enthusiasm. For instance, the level of perfection in the works of art that the top builders are building today is stunning. Who wouldn't want that. It's my opinion that if somehow the Hawken brothers could produce their rifle today without people knowing who built it that it would find buyers for 10K. I don't know how much time has degraded original pieces but I find the contemporary masters work much more refined. The lack of the general publics appreciation has brought these functional works of art into the reach of the common man. There's more worth in these pieces than the cost of parts and labor. Not everyone can afford a Picasso or a Monet but show me someone with normal abilities and a steady job and I can show you how to buy a stunning example of blackpowder perfection within a reasonable amount of time. Obviously there is a large silent group that are busy building these rifles and keeping the dream alive. I've been waiting over a year for 3 NWTG barrels and locks due to the back log of orders.

 

[Okurok]

Does anybody have the Cliff's Notes version of this? Ain't no way I'm reading all of that.

Definitely not worth your time. I'm warming my keyboard up so I'll be ready to write a novel.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The TL, DR is basically, if you want nice stuff, anyone who is motivated can save $$ and get it for themselves

Thanks for that. I agree with him too.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

That is a horrible falsehood cast upon the internet gun forum community and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Only 13 years has been spent on Ballistol, patch thicknesses, stuck balls and bore cleaning methods.

The remaining 7 years has been devoted to Kibler fanboyism.

Hey, you left out Slick Shot nipples.. ..

 

[BS2366]

Hey, you left out Slick Shot nipples.. ..

What about hot shot nipples?

 

[Flint Striker]

I wonder if instead - given the availability of Kibler kits in the $1,000 range that get you a pretty decent gun - maybe the production Pedersolis in that price range might be in danger. Many aren’t very historically accurate anyhow. Kibler isn’t the only one who could use CNC to make muzzle loaders, and he also doesn’t have to only make rifle kits. It’s possible that anything from an old doglock fowler, a long land Bess, fusils de chasse - almost anything might emerge in next few years.

 

[FishDFly]

I wonder if instead - given the availability of Kibler kits in the $1,000 range that get you a pretty decent gun - maybe the production Pedersolis in that price range might be in danger. Many aren’t very historically accurate anyhow. Kibler isn’t the only one who could use CNC to make muzzle loaders, and he also doesn’t have to only make rifle kits. It’s possible that anything from an old doglock fowler, a long land Bess, fusils de chasse - almost anything might emerge in next few years.

"It’s possible that anything from an old doglock fowler, a long land Bess, fusils de chasse - almost anything might emerge in next few years."

And just who is going to buy them?

Who has the money? How many will you buy?

 

[Flint Striker]

"It’s possible that anything from an old doglock fowler, a long land Bess, fusils de chasse - almost anything might emerge in next few years."

And just who is going to buy them?

Who has the money? How many will you buy?

If the kits are around $1k, I’d buy one and so would many others. I want to order either a Chambers or a Kibler kit if I don’t buy anything from an auction I plan to attend first. I’d really like an earlier Bess than the Short Land Pedersoli chose to offer.

 

[Stantheman86]

The Italian repros of the military muskets and rifles make really good "base" guns for defarbs

Plus the Parker-Hale Enfields and .451 rifles are kind of becoming "original reproductions " and prices are reflecting the higher quality of these guns.

I buy muzzleloaders to shoot , if they all aren't 100% true to originals it's not a big deal

Pedersoli makes really good shooting rifles, with high quality barrels. The Blue River and Rocky Mountain Hawken from Pedersoli are probably the best "production " Hawkens you can currently get, that are somewhat close to historically accurate. I have one of each and they're good enough for me, and they certainly aren't cheap. I don't need a custom rifle to go punch paper.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Those Hawkens by Pedersoli are really nice! I need one!

 

[Jedidiah]

At the ripe old age of 72 pushing 73, I sometimes wonder what another ML will do for me? I have my ML's. Two GPR's one capper .50 one flint smooth .58. Two LR's, one .50 and one .54, one fowler .62. Can't imagine why I would ever need another one. I have one of everything I need, except maybe a Zouave or Mississippi style CW rifle. I own one 1858 Remington revolver. I do not shoot any of them enough now to matter, could never wear one out, and throwing more money down the endless "rabbit hole" just to do it, or have one of a slightly different style? For what purpose? Just to have it? makes no sense to me at all. Does it matter if you have a "Woodsrunner" or a Colonial, or a Tulle de Chase or a Trade Gun, Fowler or Smooth rifle? Unless I hit the lottery, I'm done buying.

 

[French Colonial]

At the ripe old age of 72 pushing 73, I sometimes wonder what another ML will do for me? I have my ML's. Two GPR's one capper .50 one flint smooth .58. Two LR's, one .50 and one .54, one fowler .62. Can't imagine why I would ever need another one. I have one of everything I need, except maybe a Zouave or Mississippi style CW rifle. I own one 1858 Remington revolver. I do not shoot any of them enough now to matter, could never wear one out, and throwing more money down the endless "rabbit hole" just to do it, or have one of a slightly different style? For what purpose? Just to have it? makes no sense to me at all. Does it matter if you have a "Woodsrunner" or a Colonial, or a Tulle de Chase or a Trade Gun, Fowler or Smooth rifle? Unless I hit the lottery, I'm done buying.

Yep, me too, I already have all I will ever need...

I would not mind having another .32 with a shorter barrel, or a1803, or a Dickert, and I don't have a Hawken maybe a ......

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Most professional gun makers won't hang out in what's basically a chat room full of cranky old dudes that would probably tell them how to do their jobs because they built a CVA kit in '72

Most buyers of $20,000 Kentucky rifles probably don't hang out here either

So you get to endure the nonsense of people who aren't even involved in anything "custom" throwing their 2 cents in like pretty much every other internet gun forum on Earth has been for 20 years , it's not like this place is different

Yes. but it is a hodge podge of information on here. From novice to professional. Which adds to the totality of information available. Cannot tell you how many times I have used the search feature on here. It,s a good thing all considered.

 

[mikesto44]

Just a heads up...you all would be surprised at the pro or collector people on this forum...
Also if someone wants something bad enough they will figure away to get it...... Me I just started making my own... Might not be as p.c.,h.c. or architecture as some but the deer don't care...

 

[waksupi]

I amuses me those who would hesitate to buy a quality firearm, will happily go waste thousands of dollars on tattoos.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

And.... When everything else becomes illegal, all we will be left with are muzzleloaders. Then, all of us will be ahead of the curve, not late to the party.

Everything is illegal in uk.