Would this rifle be ok for a awi impression?

[Columbus]

I'll probably get laughed right off this thread, but,
after reading all the posts, I need to ask anyway.

What does the letters AWI actually stand for?

American War of Independence

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Perhaps, but there is evidence of plain guns, shimmel guns as they were called where I live, usually in smoothbore. Few farmers afforded the expensive examples, but older smoothbore guns fit the bill for general protection of homestead and livestock.
I've seen very simple examples, quite unadorned, that have a charm to me that later rifles (bedecked in brass and carvings) just don't hold. As one gunsmith told me, "We have examples of fancy rifles because they were expensive and well cared for, we have parts of shimmels because they were worked to death." Could be true, could just be anecdote. Sort of like people preserving a muscle car but not a Ford Pinto.
As to the OP, mounting a forward screw for the lock would make it appear more historically accurate. Butt plate would be fine but perhaps not necessary.

I hate to be a bit of a nay-sayer here but barn guns and shimmel rifle guns popularity in the 18th ct. appears to be greatly exaggerated. The cost of a rifle did not depend upon whether it has brass butt stock, trigger guard, pipes, and nose cap. The cost of a rifle was in making the barrel by hammer forge welding flat wrought iron stock into a seamlessly hammer forge welded cylinder around a mandrel. Then removing the mandrel and reaming it out to make it straight and finally cutting the rifling into the barrel. It was not only labor intensive, it took a lot of skill. If the heat was wrong the weld wouldn't adhere or if it was too hot, it would crack and you'd have to start over. English locks came in by the barrel full before the war and French locks once France entered the war. Rifle barrels didn't.

At the time of the revolutionary war a rifle typically cost a years wage, whereas a smoothbore cost 1/4th to 1/3rd of that. There was no such thing as a cheap rifle. But brass was cheap and easy to work. It was often one of the things a gunsmith would have an apprentice work. Now if you are going to take a week to hammer forge weld a rifle barrel and then complete the rifle, and brass is cheap, it doesn't make sense not to put a brass butt cap on the butt of the rifle to protect the stock. It's not for the sake of ornamentation but for protection of the stock. Most of the "barn guns" that I've seen in books have a pretty ragged butts, some with splits in the stock, which makes me wonder if they got that way because the buttcap came off.

So I'm not really saying there were no such things, but rather that during the Rev War, it didn't make sense to build them without brass hardware. The butt of the rifle is always being set on the ground and a rifleman's firelock got a lot of heavy use. Replacing a stock because there was no buttcap on it was a LOT more expensive than a small piece of brass for a buttcap that an apprentice can form to fit the stock.

And then after the war ended, all of a sudden the demand for rifles plummeted. That kicked off the "Golden Age" of Flintlock Longrifles because there were so many gunsmiths making rifles that they had to do something special to differentiate their rifles from the everyday one. That's when all the ornamentation appeared on longrifles with pierced patchboxes and inlaid silver wire and gold wire becoming widely used. Rococo carving was common during the Rev War and thumbplate ornamentation behind the tang of the barrel was about as ornamented as it got. Hunter's Stars (8-points), weeping hearts, leaf shapes, and crescent moon inlays along with wrist and forearm ornamentation became pretty common. Rifles were being made with more and more complex ornamentation than less.

A plain smoothbore fowler makes a lot more sense for the person who can't afford a year's wages to buy a rifle than to skimp on the brass hardware for the chance the price will go down by perhaps a single day's wages. Save a penny now so you end up with a cracked or broken stock that has to be replaced later. That would be the epitome of being penny-wise and pound foolish.

 

[Daryl Crawford]

@dgracia I don't disagree with anything you've said about rifles, though I understood the thread to be about a smoothbore, as that seems to be what the OP's potential reenacting group has as their standard.
I was also more commenting on the implication that guns "needed" the butt plate when examples in texts and museums show otherwise. While I personally prefer a butt plate on my weapons, examples remain without them, either as made that way or cut down restocked.
Regardless, I hope the length of the thread hasn't challenged the OP too much.

 

[Md80runway23]

No not at all im enjoying learning and doing research. Thanks

 

[tenngun]

I hate to be a bit of a nay-sayer here but barn guns and shimmel rifle guns popularity in the 18th ct. appears to be greatly exaggerated. The cost of a rifle did not depend upon whether it has brass butt stock, trigger guard, pipes, and nose cap. The cost of a rifle was in making the barrel by hammer forge welding flat wrought iron stock into a seamlessly hammer forge welded cylinder around a mandrel. Then removing the mandrel and reaming it out to make it straight and finally cutting the rifling into the barrel. It was not only labor intensive, it took a lot of skill. If the heat was wrong the weld wouldn't adhere or if it was too hot, it would crack and you'd have to start over. English locks came in by the barrel full before the war and French locks once France entered the war. Rifle barrels didn't.

At the time of the revolutionary war a rifle typically cost a years wage, whereas a smoothbore cost 1/4th to 1/3rd of that. There was no such thing as a cheap rifle. But brass was cheap and easy to work. It was often one of the things a gunsmith would have an apprentice work. Now if you are going to take a week to hammer forge weld a rifle barrel and then complete the rifle, and brass is cheap, it doesn't make sense not to put a brass butt cap on the butt of the rifle to protect the stock. It's not for the sake of ornamentation but for protection of the stock. Most of the "barn guns" that I've seen in books have a pretty ragged butts, some with splits in the stock, which makes me wonder if they got that way because the buttcap came off.

So I'm not really saying there were no such things, but rather that during the Rev War, it didn't make sense to build them without brass hardware. The butt of the rifle is always being set on the ground and a rifleman's firelock got a lot of heavy use. Replacing a stock because there was no buttcap on it was a LOT more expensive than a small piece of brass for a buttcap that an apprentice can form to fit the stock.

And then after the war ended, all of a sudden the demand for rifles plummeted. That kicked off the "Golden Age" of Flintlock Longrifles because there were so many gunsmiths making rifles that they had to do something special to differentiate their rifles from the everyday one. That's when all the ornamentation appeared on longrifles with pierced patchboxes and inlaid silver wire and gold wire becoming widely used. Rococo carving was common during the Rev War and thumbplate ornamentation behind the tang of the barrel was about as ornamented as it got. Hunter's Stars (8-points), weeping hearts, leaf shapes, and crescent moon inlays along with wrist and forearm ornamentation became pretty common. Rifles were being made with more and more complex ornamentation than less.

A plain smoothbore fowler makes a lot more sense for the person who can't afford a year's wages to buy a rifle than to skimp on the brass hardware for the chance the price will go down by perhaps a single day's wages. Save a penny now so you end up with a cracked or broken stock that has to be replaced later. That would be the epitome of being penny-wise and pound foolish.

We addressed his gun being a smoothie earlier in the thread
My two cents I don’t think the golden age was brought on by less of a demand for guns. One of the reasons for fighting the war was to open up the westren lands to colonization. We had a treaty with the UK but war east of the Mississippi would continue till after the defeat of Tecumseh
I do think decoration was added as a way to make X maker stand out, but by the rise of Napoleon we see an explosion in decoration for decorations sake. I just think it was styalistic because at the same time the development of the plainer SMR and Ohio rifles come to the fore
This is just an opinion not an argument for.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Many guns militia might carry couldn’t take a bayonet at that time, in that case a man needed to have a tomahawk

If you check out a lot of fowlers from the Rev War period many of them had their muzzles cut back to carry a bayonet.

 

[tenngun]

That’s true.

 

[Brokennock]

Wound a little tight there, are we? You've won some sort of 'special' award, for shoe horning the word 'Nazi' into a totally nonpolitical thread...

I think you should lighten up. If no one worried about standards the OP wouldn't have asked his question, and no one would have bothered to respond.

So your one of those that doesn't read and entire topic before jumping in with your $0.01 I guess.....
I didn't shoe horn anything in, someone before me brought the term in. And if you were capable of taking a half a second to read,,,, and understand,,, what I was saying,,, it was a slam against those who overuse the label "nazi."

 

[tenngun]

Wound a little tight there, are we? You've won some sort of 'special' award, for shoe horning the word 'Nazi' into a totally nonpolitical thread...

I think you should lighten up. If no one worried about standards the OP wouldn't have asked his question, and no one would have bothered to respond.

It was Toot that introduced it in post 15, a moderator deleted the term though it reappeared in quotes from him.
I feel the OP was about getting as close as he can to being historically correct, with a gun that’s close but could have some problems.
Toot was voicing that only people obsessed with being correct would care
Some of us want to get it right, even while admitting we don’t, some are happy being close or acceptable, some just want to have fun and if their gear doesn’t match that’s ok cause they are looking at the sprit, some just like to play dress up, some don’t care at all just like old guns
I get the impression the op wants to be in the first group, as close as he can and was seeking advice.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Happy with just shooting and utilizing The Flinter during The Season. Some may want to partake in a group that personifies a particular time period. I say have at it. I have enough trouble being myself in 2021.

 

[flntlokr]

I like the trade gun style sheet brass butt plate idea.
Nailed on would be correct I believe?
Where would one get appropriate nails?

i got short horse shoe nails for mine. drill holes thru the plate where you want nails. you can file the holes rectangular or square for a tight fit. I also pre-drilled the nail holes in the wood to prevent possible splitting. nailswere about 3/4 " long. 20+ years ago, and still holding, so I guess good enough.

 

[Md80runway23]

Correct

It was Toot that introduced it in post 15, a moderator deleted the term though it reappeared in quotes from him.
I feel the OP was about getting as close as he can to being historically correct, with a gun that’s close but could have some problems.
Toot was voicing that only people obsessed with being correct would care
Some of us want to get it right, even while admitting we don’t, some are happy being close or acceptable, some just want to have fun and if their gear doesn’t match that’s ok cause they are looking at the sprit, some just like to play dress up, some don’t care at all just like old guns
I get the impression the op wants to be in the first group, as close as he can and was seeking advice.

Correct, I spent years working on my civil war impression. Its not perfect but overall its a pretty good representation of a confederate in the army of tennessee. I get what the previous poster is saying as well some take it to a "stitch" counting level that makes it almost unatainable for most folks. I appreciate all the advice from everyone in the forum.

 

[troy2000]

So your one of those that doesn't read and entire topic before jumping in with your $0.01 I guess.....
I didn't shoe horn anything in, someone before me brought the term in. And if you were capable of taking a half a second to read,,,, and understand,,, what I was saying,,, it was a slam against those who overuse the label "nazi."

OK, I'm an idiot. I reread your post - sober this time... my sincere and embarrassed apologies.

 

[Brokennock]

OK, I'm an idiot. I reread your post - sober this time... my sincere and embarrassed apologies.

I wouldn't say idiot.
And thank you. It'd refreshing to see someone who can reply with a post like this......

Lord knows I've posted stuff that I would have said differently if I had some sleep, I don't get drunk often enough anymore,,,,,,,,,, for it to be a factor in my posts

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

American War of Independence

Well duh, didn't put that one together. Brain dead I suppose....
Thanks for the answer.

 

[JamesT]

After talking with a fellow member on this forum I believe we have struck a deal on this beautiful rifle. Just a quick question I know this rifle is pennsyvlania styled with an early germaic lock. Would this be ok for my AWI militia impression? Thanks

So did you end up purchasing this Fowler? It is a very nice gun and not to take away from it but hate to see you purchase something that doesnt suit you. Id suggest you do some research first. Secondly, ask the folks you will be falling in with. Their opinion matters the most. Lastly, figure out your budget and post a wamt to buy add specifying your preference and money you are willing to spend. Someone will have a used Fowler fitting tour exact needs. Its a big purchase. Dont buy wrong. Again not being critical of the one you are mulling over.
James

 

[Md80runway23]

Yes ive made an agreement with the seller. Its a good start, id like to build my next ine and will be more correct in doing so then.

 

[hopping]

Welcome too the Forum and a great book too reference… The Kennedy School being my personal favorite of the book…

MyFamily roots have ties too Mechanics Hill area on both sides..
David Kennedy is buried less than 15 miles from where I grew up in NW Alabama..

The Kennedy gun manufacturing site in Greenhill Al was located some 400 yards from my parents graves…

Good to hear from a fan of the Kennedy rifles. I've recently had several through my shop here in NC for preservation and there are many active Kennedy rifle collectors around here. I've been a federally licensed Gunsmith for 58 years now and have been building period correct long rifles for that long. Bill Ivey did a great deal of research on the NC gun makers and his book is one of the best since John Dillin's 1924 book or Henry Kauffman's 1960 book.

And yes if you loook at primary sources, there was a difference in price for brass butt plates, swamping, and other refinements. If you were a blacksmith gun maker in western NC or VA you often bought your brass furniture and locks from up north and fitting butt plates and side plate still took time. Even Alexander and David Kennedy bought their locks from NY and their brass parts from PA until they built a forge to handle brass and started to make their own locks. David had a great story about how he learned to make his own locks.

I currently have a really cool golden age long rifle in the shop for preservation that has a .32 caliber, 43 1/2 inch brass barrel that is rifled with five lands. In over 5 decades, I've never before seen a rifled brass barrel in a long rifle. There are no makers marks and it seems to have been forged as one piece. The barrel is tapered from 15/16 to 5/8. It is classic curly maple with 4 barrel wedges. It was converted to percussion long ago with a standard commercial Warrented lock. It is beautiful. BTW, it has only one lock bolt and has german silver wedge plates and inlays.

 

[smo]

Would that be the story of how he fiddled his way in too the lock manufacturer all the time observing how the locks were made?

 

[JamesT]

Good to hear from a fan of the Kennedy rifles. I've recently had several through my shop here in NC for preservation and there are many active Kennedy rifle collectors around here. I've been a federally licensed Gunsmith for 58 years now and have been building period correct long rifles for that long. Bill Ivey did a great deal of research on the NC gun makers and his book is one of the best since John Dillin's 1924 book or Henry Kauffman's 1960 book.

And yes if you loook at primary sources, there was a difference in price for brass butt plates, swamping, and other refinements. If you were a blacksmith gun maker in western NC or VA you often bought your brass furniture and locks from up north and fitting butt plates and side plate still took time. Even Alexander and David Kennedy bought their locks from NY and their brass parts from PA until they built a forge to handle brass and started to make their own locks. David had a great story about how he learned to make his own locks.

I currently have a really cool golden age long rifle in the shop for preservation that has a .32 caliber, 43 1/2 inch brass barrel that is rifled with five lands. In over 5 decades, I've never before seen a rifled brass barrel in a long rifle. There are no makers marks and it seems to have been forged as one piece. The barrel is tapered from 15/16 to 5/8. It is classic curly maple with 4 barrel wedges. It was converted to percussion long ago with a standard commercial Warrented lock. It is beautiful. BTW, it has only one lock bolt and has german silver wedge plates and inlays.

Pictures of the brass barreled rifle please! We all want to see it !
James