Troubleshooting a used Musket - Tightening it up!

[Aldarith]

Hey friends,


My first musket arrived today.
The frizzen screw is DEFINITELY too short - the thing wiggles like crazy and is likely to fall out on the job.
I know the length but am unsure how to measure the width or identify the thread.
How do I measure this one in order to ascertain what to replace it with?

Additionally it seems like the frizzen and cock aren't original, nor is the frizzen a super good fit for the bridle or pan.
It's functional, but washers are needed to fill the gap on the bridle to stop it from wiggling and there is a slight gap between the barrel and pan, which I know is not a dealbreaker but could probably be tighter.

Help a new guy out - how do I measure these parts up in preparation to replace or refit them?

Please don't be afraid to be exhaustive, I am that new.

 

[Aldarith]

But of an uh-oh too - it just slipped off half-cock.

 

[necchi]

Who made the musket? Is it American or European?

 

[Aldarith]

Good question.
It's a Belgian Liege marked export musket.

Another little thing I notice is that the bottom jaw is striking the edge of the pan.

 

[Aldarith]

Alright, so I popped the lock off.

Our issues so far: Sprue forming on the sear where it touched the tumbler. Some metal wearing off the tumbler.

Screw heads machined off (****). This appears to be because the top bridle screw touches the brass screw that fixes the barrel to the triggerguard. Looks like the previous owner put this lock on themself and just didnt want to machine a channel in the brass screw so they just did the screw heads in.
Luckily with the lock off I realize the frizzen screw is the correct one, it's just stripped.

Additionally, they used a woodscrew and a cut screw in place of a lockplate screw to fix the front of the lock to the stock.
That will need to be replaced for sure.

What are my options here? How do I assess the threads for these screws so I can find replacements?

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Alright, so I popped the lock off.

Our issues so far: Sprue forming on the sear where it touched the tumbler. Some metal wearing off the tumbler.

Screw heads machined off (Cranberries). This appears to be because the top bridle screw touches the brass screw that fixes the barrel to the triggerguard. Looks like the previous owner put this lock on themself and just didnt want to machine a channel in the brass screw so they just did the screw heads in.
Luckily with the lock off I realize the frizzen screw is the correct one, it's just stripped.

Additionally, they used a woodscrew and a cut screw in place of a lockplate screw to fix the front of the lock to the stock.
That will need to be replaced for sure.

What are my options here? How do I assess the threads for these screws so I can find replacements?

You need a thread gauge. The gauge will tell you the threads per inch or mm depending on weather or not you have american threads (I doubt that) or metric. Then you need to use a dial caliper to measure diameter. Look at machine screw charts to find what you have.
I would be leary of the internal lock components! It looks like some parts may not be hardened, or at least not hard enough. NOT GOOD IF THAT IS TRUE. Just my opinion from what I see from a photo.
Larry

 

[Aldarith]

You need a thread gauge. The gauge will tell you the threads per inch or mm depending on weather or not you have american threads (I doubt that) or metric. Then you need to use a dial caliper to measure diameter. Look at machine screw charts to find what you have.
I would be leary of the internal lock components! It looks like some parts may not be hardened, or at least not hard enough. NOT GOOD IF THAT IS TRUE. Just my opinion from what I see from a photo.
Larry

Question 1: what is the indication they they aren't hardened enough?

Question 2: How do I harden them if they aren't hardened enough?

 

[FlinterNick]

Question 1: what is the indication they they aren't hardened enough?

Question 2: How do I harden them if they aren't hardened enough?

Small parts can be hardened in a makeshift kiln with bricks, a MAPP torch and a water quench with 30 minutes of tempering at 600-700 degrees on an electric hob. However it will only get adequately hard, not through and through, but it works.

 

[Artificer]

Hey friends,

My first musket arrived today.
The frizzen screw is DEFINITELY too short - the thing wiggles like crazy and is likely to fall out on the job.
I know the length but am unsure how to measure the width or identify the thread.
How do I measure this one in order to ascertain what to replace it with?

Not even sure if the frizzen screw has the right threads. I suggest trying to run it into the interior side of the lock to see if it screws in properly. If not, then that is a bad replacement as well.

Do you have a set of digital Vernier Calipers that read to .001" increments?

Larry is correct the threads are probably metric. Do you know anyone locally who is a full time or part time machinist or perhaps an auto mechanic? Machinists can help you get the exact thread and size while a mechanic may be able to do it as well.

More later,
Gus

 

[Aldarith]

Not even sure if the frizzen screw has the right threads. I suggest trying to run it into the interior side of the lock to see if it screws in properly. If not, then that is a bad replacement as well.

Do you have a set of digital Vernier Calipers that read to .001" increments?

Larry is correct the threads are probably metric. Do you know anyone locally who is a full time or part time machinist or perhaps an auto mechanic? Machinists can help you get the exact thread and size while a mechanic may be able to do it as well.

There is really no relief left on these threads, they are round and have absolutely zero bite - right down to the shaft.

I do not have calipers but perhaps it is time to invest?
I bought acheap plastic gauge so I can diagnose the sizes quickly, it has both metric and imperial. Doesn't help me figure out the threads though.
I think I will have to take the lock to the hardware store and start screwing things into it to test it

I don't know any machinists but I will ask around.

 

[FlinterNick]

There is really no relief left on these threads, they are round and have absolutely zero bite - right down to the shaft.

I do not have calipers but perhaps it is time to invest?
I bought acheap plastic gauge so I can diagnose the sizes quickly, it has both metric and imperial. Doesn't help me figure out the threads though.
I think I will have to take the lock to the hardware store and start screwing things into it to test it

I don't know any machinists but I will ask around.

If its a Belgian lock then its likely metric, however Belgium gunmakers were known to have used original screws purchased in surplus and that screw looks like an original with rounded threads. You may want to consider redrilling nd taping to a more generic option in metric. Those Belgian locks were about the size of some of the Italian guns, so a pedersoli bess frizzen screw may work.

 

[FlinterNick]

Alright, so I popped the lock off.

Our issues so far: Sprue forming on the sear where it touched the tumbler. Some metal wearing off the tumbler.

Screw heads machined off (Cranberries). This appears to be because the top bridle screw touches the brass screw that fixes the barrel to the triggerguard. Looks like the previous owner put this lock on themself and just didnt want to machine a channel in the brass screw so they just did the screw heads in.
Luckily with the lock off I realize the frizzen screw is the correct one, it's just stripped.

Additionally, they used a woodscrew and a cut screw in place of a lockplate screw to fix the front of the lock to the stock.
That will need to be replaced for sure.

What are my options here? How do I assess the threads for these screws so I can find replacements?

One thing the the Belgian gun makers did really well was die made springs, you should almost never have an issue with teh spring being too weak.

 

[Aldarith]

consider red filling and taping to a more generic option in metric.

Oh please do tell - this is a new process to me.

 

[Aldarith]

New problem: The cock has this awful cut metal washer behind it and I realize now that it doesn't really fit the tumbler all that well as I actually have to exert a little pressure on the tumbler and rotate it backwards to make it fit. It's still got pressure on it even when resting on the pan, so it seems to me this would be unnecessarily hard on the lock.

Should I consider a replacement?
If so, how do I measure the throw in order to judge a fit replacement?

 

[Aldarith]

Here is a short video that will hopefully illustrate what I mean.

 

[FlinterNick]

Oh please do tell - this is a new process to me.

If you don’t have a drill press I wouldn’t use a handdrill to correct the screw, I’d just send that to a gunsmith.

Paul Ackerman is a good one, he can fix that for $20-30.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Question 1: what is the indication they they aren't hardened enough?

Question 2: How do I harden them if they aren't hardened enough?

Q 1. "But of an uh-oh too - it just slipped off half-cock". <-----Your comment and close up photo showing the sear engagement. The tumbler arbor is all beat to hell. No real significant proof, just a suspect I would be looking at. Not saying the parts are not hardened, I would just make sure they are, or you will be having more trouble down the road.
Q 2. If you need help there, someone else needs to chime in as it gets too complicated with respect to what part you are trying to re-harden.
Larry

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

New problem: The cock has this awful cut metal washer behind it and I realize now that it doesn't really fit the tumbler all that well as I actually have to exert a little pressure on the tumbler and rotate it backwards to make it fit. It's still got pressure on it even when resting on the pan, so it seems to me this would be unnecessarily hard on the lock.

Should I consider a replacement?
If so, how do I measure the throw in order to judge a fit replacement?

No disrespect to your musket intended, but I would not worry about the washer behind the cock as the lock is not a top quality one anyway. The pressure you are showing (good vid) does not seem significant to worry about. The main spring will always be in a slight tension even when the cock is down.
Larry

 

[Artificer]

I think I will have to take the lock to the hardware store and start screwing things into it to test it

That's a good idea. Be sure to strip the lock plate before you do and check each and every hole size at the hardware store and make sure to record the sizes on paper. That so you have something to refer back to later and so you don't forget. I do that and believe me it is too easy to forget, if you don't.

Gus

 

[Aldarith]

Q 1. "But of an uh-oh too - it just slipped off half-cock". <-----Your comment and close up photo showing the sear engagement. The tumbler arbor is all beat to hell. No real significant proof, just a suspect I would be looking at. Not saying the parts are not hardened, I would just make sure they are, or you will be having more trouble down the road.
Q 2. If you need help there, someone else needs to chime in as it gets too complicated with respect to what part you are trying to re-harden.

No disrespect to your musket intended, but I would not worry about the washer behind the cock as the lock is not a top quality one anyway. The pressure you are showing (good vid) does not seem significant to worry about. The main spring will always be in a slight tension even when the cock is down.
Larry

I should clarify that when I say it slipped off, I mean that I put it on half cock and tested the trigger and it slipped off. It doesn't slip on it's own.
It does hold half cock, it just isn't "safe" on half cock.


No disrespect interpreted, it's a trade musket after all

The washer appears to have been installed to push the cock out from the lock far enough to clear the top of it.
I am filing a small amount of the obverse side off with a diamond file to make sure it sits properly without slamming in to the lock face if the washer is removed. I will replace the washer with something better if need be, but I think this small modification will eliminate the needfor one entirely. I may also use a copper shim (once all the rest of the work is done) to help make sure the cock puts even pressure on the faces of the tumbler "nut" since the hole here is not an ideal fit either.