Parker-Hale Musketoon Lock Question

[windini]

Earlier this year, I acquired a Parker-Hale 1858 pattern musketoon. I was eager to love it! But it has turned out to be a somewhat problem child...

My first range trip revealed a lock issue. The trigger pull did not make the anticipated bang! Instead, the hammer came to a dead stop at half-****. This issue repeated for several attempts, but I finally got a shot downrange. Various tweakings of the trigger might or might not make it fire, so after 3 rounds, I took it home, cleaned it, and started some research.

The consensus among a few non-gunsmith BP shooters was that something was loose in the lock - maybe a loose screw or a chip/cap fragment or something eles getting lodged in the mechanism.

I finally got around to taking it apart, and noticed that the bridel screws (2) and the sear return spring screw (1) were a tad loose. More importantly, I saw that the half-**** notch on the fly was peened, with a ridge rising up in the (potential) path of the sear. Fig. 1:


Here it is with the fly removed; much more obvious here. Fig 2:


So I filed & stoned it off (being careful of the fly geometry, of course) and cut the half **** notch a smidgen deeper to provide solid engagment with the sear.

I cleaned up the other parts, lubricated all the contact surfaces with moly paste, and reassembed. The lock seems to function well - to a point. The half- and full-**** engagements are solid until I snug down the rear bridle screw. Then, the sear is pinned or otherwise restricted in its movement such that it can't lever itself into the notches - it barely catches the lip of the half-**** notch and won't settle into the full-**** notch at all. ??

The reassembled lock with recyclable biodegradable sustainably harvested all-natural pointer indicating the offending screw. Fig 3:


It looks like the sear isn't aligned/parallel to the lock plate.
Bottom view. Fig 4:


During disassembly, a small washer appeared in my catch-all pan; it (probably) came from one of the bridle screws, as it is a bit large in diameter for the sear return spring screw. I put it with the forward bridle screw first, noted the sear binding issue, then put it in between the sear and fly (no resolution), then between the sear and the lock plate (no resolution).

As it stands now, the lock (uninstalled in the rifle) will function "normally" as long as the rear bridle screw is loose. Needless to say, I'm leery of reinstalling it with it not snugged down. I don't think it would be good if it came looser-er under fire.

So, if anyone with percussion lockwork has any ideas or suggestions, I'd like to hear 'em! I want to get this one back out in the field. Thanks!

 

[ord sgt]

You don't need to over tighten the sear screw. The tumbler needs room to rotate without friction from the lock plate and the bridal. Finger tight on your turn screw is all that is needed. I usually put a small amount of oil on the lock plate and bridal, and some oil on the sear screw. Just leave these parts slightly loose and the lock should work.

 

[windini]

You don't need to over tighten the sear screw. The tumbler needs room to rotate without friction from the lock plate and the bridal. Finger tight on your turn screw is all that is needed. I usually put a small amount of oil on the lock plate and bridal, and some oil on the sear screw. Just leave these parts slightly loose and the lock should work.

Thanks Sarge!

 

[dave951]

I put a touch of finger nail polish on mine to ensure it stays in place.

 

[TreeMan]

I have a Parker hale musketoon I bought used a few years ago. It would do the same thing when you pulled the trigger. It would fall to half ****. Mine was not a lock issue at all. My lock was rubbing the wood inside the inletting. At one point it appears the lock screws had been tightened to much and the lock was sitting too far in the lock mortise. I shimmed it back out and removed a small amount of wood where the lock internals were rubbing. Works perfect now. If your lock works fine while not in the rifle check for wood rubbing when it is installed back into the rifle.

 

[windini]

I put a touch of finger nail polish on mine to ensure it stays in place.

I like this! More discreet than blue Loctite.

If your lock works fine while not in the rifle check for wood rubbing when it is installed back into the rifle.

Good advice. While the lockplate on mine appreared to be flush with the surface of the stock, I'll check for indentations and signs of rubbing in the mortise recesses.

Thank you both!

 

[52Bore]

I’m with you on loose parts.. The screw should have a shoulder to tighten firmly while still allowing the sear to move freely - you might consider making one (if you can).
Also, I don’t see a fly.

 

[Britsmoothy]

There is no fly in this lock.
The bridal plate and scres should all but finger tight.
Years of being to tight has caused the peined tumbler at the half **** notch.

 

[GregLaRoche]

The peined tumbler was most caused by the problem and not the cause of it. It’s an old and proven type of lock, but it needs everything set up correctly so it functions like it should. The tumbler needs to turn fast enough, so the sear doesn’t have a chance to drop down and catch in the half lock safety. Make sure everything has free movement, being careful not to tighten the lock too tight. The scew you can’t or it will bind, screw it in until it binds, then back it off just enough. I would put some Locktite on the threads to keep it from coming loose.

Instal the lock and see if it works. Hopefully, you will get lucky and it will work. Other solutions could be a stiffer mainspring or even a lighter sear spring. Don’t go doing any more stoning on the tumbler or sear, unless you are really comfortable and sure you know what you are doing. You may have to a smith that specializes in muzzle loaders.

 

[William Lincoln]

Was it rehabbed-or replaced stock-or modified? Check inletting.
No strain should be on lock.

 

[windini]

I stand corrected in the terminology department: tumbler, not fly.

The screws were not at all tight on disassembly. I misinterpreted this as perhaps being part of the problem. I've had input from elsewhere that the tumbler geometry "didn't look right," but I don't have any other P-H 1858 pattern Enfield tumbler image to go on, so I can't make that determination yet.

The next step is to get the screws to sear-functioning tightness, apply a little nail polish or locktite, and try it out.

Other solutions could be a stiffer mainspring or even a lighter sear spring.

This may help if option A doesn't work. Thanks.

 

[Phil Coffins]

I hope you find someone to help you with this lock. On a side note others can learn from this post.

”This issue repeated for several attempts, but I finally got a shot downrange. Various tweakings of the trigger might or might not make it fire, so after 3 rounds,”

When an issue like this pops up repeating the attempts only caused more damage. Stop, figure out what’s going on and get it fixed.
Good luck.

 

[Artificer]

OK, to make interchangeable parts locks then and now, NO one to my knowledge "times" Bridle or Sear Screws. With ALL of them, you tighten these screws down fairly snug and THEN you back them off or unscrew them a little ways, just so the parts (tumbler or sear) freely move.

Since there has to be a plus or minus tolerance for interchangeable parts manufacturer, they can't make the screws so they can be tightened down snug unless one specifically fits each screw. The easiest way to do that is to take a little off the underside of the screw head a little at a time, until the screw can tighten down without binding the part underneath it. This can take an hour or two and almost NO ONE wants to pay the labor costs involved for this kind of hand fitting.

Something else to look for that causes damage to the half ****. If there isn't enough clearance in the stock for the Sear Leg to go high enough, it keeps the sear nose down to where it hits the Half **** Notch. The way to test for this is to put lipstick or grease or lamp black on the top of the Sear Leg, mount the lock and while holding the hammer, try pulling the trigger a few times and allow the hammer to softly go down on the nipple. Re-****, do it again and a third time. Take the lock off and see if the lip stick, grease or lamp black left a mark in wood at the top of the deep hole in the lock mortise. If so, scrape the wood or use a dremel tool to cut out just enough wood so the top of the Sear Leg no longer hits the wood there when you test it three times again.

Gus

 

[Barry Strickland]

Windini
It would appear your sear pivot hole was drilled at an angle which is cocking the sear arm out from the plate. This could cause multiple problems. I have attached a picture of my lock out of my Birmingham manufactured Parker Hale musketoon. As you can see in the picture there is hardly enough room between the sear arm and the plate to get a piece of paper between.

 

[windini]

If there isn't enough clearance in the stock for the Sear Leg to go high enough, it keeps the sear nose down to where it hits the Half **** Notch.

Yes! I discovered this issue yesterday while tinkering with it some more. The lock is at a point were it seems to function correctly and smoothly when out of the stock. After placing the lock back in the stock (w/o screwing it in), I tried cocking the hammer & found it would set at half ****, but it would not hold at full ****. Part of/ an edge of the recess for the sear leg is interfering with proper function. There may be a few other ares where the lock mortise isn't adequately relieved, but I'll work on the sear leg recess first. Very helpful observation!

Windini
It would appear your sear pivot hole was drilled at an angle which is cocking the sear arm out from the plate. This could cause multiple problems. I have attached a picture of my lock out of my Birmingham manufactured Parker Hale musketoon. As you can see in the picture there is hardly enough room between the sear arm and the plate to get a piece of paper between. View attachment 108082

Thank you for the photo! That give me something to compare mine to. This confirms I've got that mini washer I mentioned in the wrong location. (I think the hole is true.)

Have you disassembled your lock before, and do you have any idea what the proper location for the washer is?

Another thought: perhaps the washer holding the sear out of plane is causing the sear leg to rub on the edge of its recess. I'll try removing it before I start a-whittlin'.

Very helpful post, thanks to both of you.

 

[Artificer]

Artificer said:
If there isn't enough clearance in the stock for the Sear Leg to go high enough, it keeps the sear nose down to where it hits the Half **** Notch.

Yes! I discovered this issue yesterday while tinkering with it some more. The lock is at a point were it seems to function correctly and smoothly when out of the stock. After placing the lock back in the stock (w/o screwing it in), I tried cocking the hammer & found it would set at half ****, but it would not hold at full ****. Part of/ an edge of the recess for the sear leg is interfering with proper function. There may be a few other ares where the lock mortise isn't adequately relieved, but I'll work on the sear leg recess first. Very helpful observation!

Fairly common problem I've seen on many repro UnCivil War muskets after working on them for many years.

Thank you for the photo! That give me something to compare mine to. This confirms I've got that mini washer I mentioned in the wrong location. (I think the hole is true.)

Very helpful post, thanks to both of you.

I can't be fully sure without the lock in my hands, but I suspect the washer went between the bottom of the bridle and the top of the sear. That or less likely between the bottom of the sear and the lock plate itself. However, this was NOT something that came that way when the lock/gun came from the manufacturer. It was added later.

You are most welcome.
Gus

 

[Cpt Flint]

I’m curious about this lock not having a fly in it.
Did some of the 1853 locks have a fly to keep the sear from snagging the half ****? Which ones?

 

[ord sgt]

I’m curious about this lock not having a fly in it.
Did some of the 1853 locks have a fly to keep the sear from snagging the half ****? Which ones?

There is no need for a fly in the tumbler. The fly is used with double set triggers. This is a single trigger.

 

[Cpt Flint]

I agree with all of the above. I restate my original question: Did some of the 1853 Enfield variations have a fly in the lock? I say this because my Whitworth does. I’m just curious.
That’s all.

 

[Artificer]

I agree with all of the above. I restate my original question: Did some of the 1853 Enfield variations have a fly in the lock? I say this because my Whitworth does. I’m just curious.
That’s all.

REAL Parker Hale Whitworths did and those tumblers interchanged with the P1853/58/61 locks as well as original "interchangeable pattern" guns.

Original Military P1853/58/61 Enfields did not.

Gus