For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[Clark Badgett]

I recently showed my India-made Bess to an experienced re-enactor, and he commented on how nice the lock worked; easy to ****, etc. It was mfg. in the late 1970's or so. Just my take on just one musket I got at auction in the 80's.

Reenactors liking something is not always a ringing endorsement. 9 of 10 of them don’t know much beyond what a vendor tells them.

Most reenacting is merely camping in funny clothing.

 

[Historian]

This thread is over 2 years old! Wow! August 31, 2022. Are we bored.

 

[Grenadier1758]

No, @Historian, we are just getting started. The Indian manufactured guns are not built to the top quality standards of the best of the best of the muzzleloading guns available. They do supply guns that are not available anywhere else. While they are often too heavy, parts don't fit, and some the parts that should be hardened are not, for reenactors that demand equipment that is close to being correct for the era reenacted and want to make a presentation that is well above that of camping in funny clothes, they are the only option that can be acceptable.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Reenactors liking something is not always a ringing endorsement. 9 of 10 of them don’t know much beyond what a vendor tells them.

Most reenacting is merely camping in funny clothing.

I wonder how big was your "sample" to come to such conclusions?

I've owned five, all from Loyalist Arms LLC, and still own and operate four of them. Two carbines, a trade gun, and a 1756 Bess. I don't see a reason to drop more than $1500 for an Italian made musket that would NEVER have been used by whom I portray at a living history event. Excellent wood to metal fit doesn't do much for something that did not exist yet. I did get a deal on a Bess that new would've been $1800 having had $300 worth of additional parts changes to make it look more like the Bess of the time period, a Long Land Bess. I got it used.

The only firing problems I've ever had with the India made product (mine were made in Udaipur) have bee remedied with replacing the flint.

LD

 

[Tumbledown]

That is one thing.
From perdersoli you can get a charley, bess,and several WBTS guns. A fair range of styles of rifles.
From India you can get several bass and charley styles German muskets,Spanish ( look a lot like bess or charley but ain’t) blunderbusses, matchlocks, several shotguns,several fusils. A host of pistols
FDC and NWG,

You can't get a Bess from Pedersoli. They don't make a Long Land Pattern, and their SLP is an inaccurate immitation.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I wonder how big was your "sample" to come to such conclusions?

I've owned five, all from Loyalist Arms LLC, and still own and operate four of them. Two carbines, a trade gun, and a 1756 Bess. I don't see a reason to drop more than $1500 for an Italian made musket that would NEVER have been used by whom I portray at a living history event. Excellent wood to metal fit doesn't do much for something that did not exist yet. I did get a deal on a Bess that new would've been $1800 having had $300 worth of additional parts changes to make it look more like the Bess of the time period, a Long Land Bess. I got it used.

The only firing problems I've ever had with the India made product (mine were made in Udaipur) have bee remedied with replacing the flint.

LD

My sample was quite large. 10 years large, multiple eras. Pulling stuff out of my back side really is not my style.

There are much better options than Indian or Italian muskets, and you have been around long enough to know that.

 

[tenngun]

My sample was quite large. 10 years large, multiple eras. Pulling stuff out of my back side really is not my style.

There are much better options than Indian or Italian muskets, and you have been around long enough to know that.

And there cost is?
11Bang Bang channel on you tube discussed this. They were able to get into the sport via Indian arms. They would have never had the cash to go with better, or at least unwilling to lay it out on a sport they may not like
My one Indian gun makes me happy, I could never justify in my economic situation a similar gun from the rifle shop.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My sample was quite large. 10 years large, multiple eras. Pulling stuff out of my back side really is not my style.

There are much better options than Indian or Italian muskets, and you have been around long enough to know that.

Better?

Depends on what you want to do. BTW my experiential sample is 35 years long, and multiple eras too, and I find your conclusion specious.

The only non-India manufactured muskets out there in production are Italian.

The only other option is custom built. Unfortunately, paying the craftsman for such would put the activity out of the reach of many, and NOT just for the price. There are not enough builders who can build a LLP Bess to a higher standard than Italian manufacture, available to outfit those that participate in Bess Era events, even if price were not a consideration for any of them. The suggestion is spurious.

LD

 

[ZUG]

Better?

Depends on what you want to do. BTW my experiential sample is 35 years long, and multiple eras too, and I find your conclusion specious.

The only non-India manufactured muskets out there in production are Italian.

The only other option is custom built. Unfortunately, paying the craftsman for such would put the activity out of the reach of many, and NOT just for the price. There are not enough builders who can build a LLP Bess to a higher standard than Italian manufacture, available to outfit those that participate in Bess Era events, even if price were not a consideration for any of them. The suggestion is spurious.

LD

Dave - I LOVE your use of the word "specious" ---.

 

[Rudyard]

No, @Historian, we are just getting started. The Indian manufactured guns are not built to the top quality standards of the best of the best of the muzzleloading guns available. They do supply guns that are not available anywhere else. While they are often too heavy, parts don't fit, and some the parts that should be hardened are not, for reenactors that demand equipment that is close to being correct for the era reenacted and want to make a presentation that is well above that of camping in funny clothes, they are the only option that can be acceptable.

Well put . Ime a Reenactor & was heavily into the .US ones each summer. Ive made muskets that ended up in national museums .But my own musket was a much' Got Up 'Indian one cobbled from the wrecks of three damaged ones into some noddingly' Colonels private purchase ' .& it served me very well . Cobblers Kids are traditionally the Poorest shod . Camping in funny clothes ?! . Thats rather unkind and patronising Ive done so many I once did three in a row The Salamanca Mud Eastern then straight to Fair at New Boston with another before or after cant recall & never once went' Porky '
Rudyard's stance

 

[Mle1822]

Reenactors liking something is not always a ringing endorsement. 9 of 10 of them don’t know much beyond what a vendor tells them.

Most reenacting is merely camping in funny clothing.

Well Im not sure about reenactment in US, but in Europe we take things a bit more seriously. I dont recall ever getting any black powder firearm advice from a vendor. Depending on which firearm that particular unit uses people mostly look for italian guns and if that is not available they ask a gunmaker or buy indian or second hand. Most people also shoot live and reenactment is just a part of the whole hobby.

 

[Tumbledown]

Camping in funny clothes ?! . Thats rather unkind and patronising

It's also arrogant and condescending. And expected from certain people.

 

[Clark Badgett]

It's also arrogant and condescending. And expected from certain people.

And it’s also true. As much as you harp about documenting everything, but you defend the “if they had it, they would use it” crowd. 90% of reenactors are farbs, and the more easily an era is to document the worst it gets.

 

[French Colonial]

And it’s also true. As much as you harp about documenting everything, but you defend the “if they had it, they would use it” crowd. 90% of reenactors are farbs, and the more easily an era is to document the worst it gets.

You are so far off base....

Maybe at the events you have been to, but the juried events that I have been a part of are nothing like you describe. I have always tried to be as HC as possible and have spent hours reading historical accounts and inventories.

You paint with too broad of a brush.

Edit.
AND! you would be surprised what they had and used in the mid 1700's in Illinois, documented red silk breeches, a pool hall and beer brewing among other things. Just because YOU don't know things doesn't mean the rest of us do not.

 

[wiscoaster]

Most ARE made to be firearms... specifically those of Middlesex arms are. One company makes them without a touch hole so they are not legally a firearm... and putting in a touch hole ruins the warranty. THOSE you are a fool for shooting. Pay the same for shooter.

It's my understanding that ALL India-made guns are manufactured without a touch hole, and specifically so they can be exported as non-functioning "replica" firearms. Middlesex drills the vent hole and hardens the frizzen, among other procedures, to produce a fully-functioning firearm of shootable quality. As do all the other vendors that sell a shootable India-made firearm. Carefully read the Middlesex FAQs. It's in there.

There are companies that import them and sell them directly without making them shootable, leaving that to the end user. But to the best of my knowledge, no India guns come in with touch holes already drilled.

I purchased a Sea Service pistol from Loyalist and it took a long time to get it, but it's a fine gun and hasn't exploded on me yet.

 

[tenngun]

When I hear talk about differences in particular guns from original my eyes glaze over
Take a pedi bess and Indian and a custom made bench copy
Mix them with a half dozen originals and take a black and white photo so the difference in new and old wood aren’t seen
Then see if any expert can pick it out
I bet few can
And I’m willing to bet that the el cheapo Indian has comparable fit and finish compared to original. I know mine has fine inlets and well finished wood, and importantly shoots better and more reliably then the original

 

[Clark Badgett]

You are so far off base....

Maybe at the events you have been to, but the juried events that I have been a part of are nothing like you describe. I have always tried to be as HC as possible and have spent hours reading historical accounts and inventories.

You paint with too broad of a brush.

Edit.
AND! you would be surprised what they had and used in the mid 1700's in Illinois, documented red silk breeches, a pool hall and beer brewing among other things. Just because YOU don't know things doesn't mean the rest of us do not.

Juried events that cater to the 10% that do it correctly. I know those exist. I was invited to many when I did this stuff.

And you last paragraph is just plain dumb. If I don’t know, I have no problems asking. And I know they had a lot of stuff we don’t commonly think of. Had that part figured out by 1995.

 

[Clark Badgett]

When I hear talk about differences in particular guns from original my eyes glaze over
Take a pedi bess and Indian and a custom made bench copy
Mix them with a half dozen originals and take a black and white photo so the difference in new and old wood aren’t seen
Then see if any expert can pick it out
I bet few can
And I’m willing to bet that the el cheapo Indian has comparable fit and finish compared to original. I know mine has fine inlets and well finished wood, and importantly shoots better and more reliably then the original

I could pick them out correctly every time.

Might ask Dave Person about the British ordnance standards and the overall quality of originals.

 

[FlinterNick]

Better?

Depends on what you want to do. BTW my experiential sample is 35 years long, and multiple eras too, and I find your conclusion specious.

The only non-India manufactured muskets out there in production are Italian.

The only other option is custom built. Unfortunately, paying the craftsman for such would put the activity out of the reach of many, and NOT just for the price. There are not enough builders who can build a LLP Bess to a higher standard than Italian manufacture, available to outfit those that participate in Bess Era events, even if price were not a consideration for any of them. The suggestion is spurious.

LD

Most of the guns i often have to service in my group are Indian made. I’m not going to throw some statistic at you, but its heavy majority. One of the reasons i no longer service Indian made guns is because it’s not worth my time to spend on them and it’s not worth their money dumping into a cost sink. You’ll find that many reputable gun builders wont go near them for these very reasons.

To me Dave the fact that most black powder gun smiths wont work on them is is plenty of proof enough as to the concerns over their quality.

 

[FlinterNick]

You can't get a Bess from Pedersoli. They don't make a Long Land Pattern, and their SLP is an inaccurate immitation.

That may change soon.