India Torador Matchlock Wall Gun

[Pukka Bundook]

Flint,
I suppose Eggerton was writing of what he saw, and yes, I too have barrels from the north, (Oudh I believe ) that show no twist.
I suppose also that in a country the size and with the diversity of India, there were likely many regional differences all running hand in hand.
Some of the "Omani" fluted barels also show no twist. (but some do!)
It could well be that Eggerton witnessed the manufacture of a type of lap welded barrel. The other form starts out very similar with the straws as he calls them, heated, twisted into a ribbon and then wound around a mandrel.

Maybe Rick could show his good example again!

Here is one of mine....

All the best,
R.

 

[Rudyard]

Flint,
I suppose Eggerton was writing of what he saw, and yes, I too have barrels from the north, (Oudh I believe ) that show no twist.
I suppose also that in a country the size and with the diversity of India, there were likely many regional differences all running hand in hand.
Some of the "Omani" fluted barels also show no twist. (but some do!)
It could well be that Eggerton witnessed the manufacture of a type of lap welded barrel. The other form starts out very similar with the straws as he calls them, heated, twisted into a ribbon and then wound around a mandrel.

Maybe Rick could show his good example again!

Here is one of mine....View attachment 319939

All the best,
R.

I see you have some scientific wadding in smaller calibers I suppose you could use bunny currants ? with cannons I imagine there would be Elephants so be' proportionate' . Hmmm perhaps not . Might be considered a crappy idea .
Ime always tempered in my going by Eggerton as he likely got guns from all over but some would come as gifts & the doner only going on where He got it and what he in turn was told it was . Whatever the story I am fascinated by these twist & Damascus barrels its like theirs a bit of magic in them that ouses out the more you look into them. Wow getting poetic here but they are intriguing I think we all would agree on that.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

FWIW,
The dry cow dung was very often used as wadding.
It works well enough and you don't get the wet greasy fouling. Seems absorbent!!
Mind, with felt wads greased you Do get a higher velocity!

 

[rickystl]

In the case of the wall gun, I shouldn't have used the word Damascus. There is no trace of twisted Damascus in the barrel that I can tell. Just some form of very tough iron. There were two other wall guns similar to mine at the same auction. When I drove to pick mine up, it was standing next to the other two waiting to be picked up. So I briefly looked at the other two. They looked virtually identical, except the difference in barrel length. Unlike the typical Torador we encounter, the barrels on these wall guns have very little taper. Which of course makes them heavier. But that was the general idea I guess. Like a heavy barreled target rifle.
As Pukka mentions, most of the typical Torador barrels I've encountered are twisted Damascus. Here is the barrel of my shooter after cleaning during restoration. The twist is very apparent.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Wooops. Forgot the pics....

 

[Rudyard]

In the case of the wall gun, I shouldn't have used the word Damascus. There is no trace of twisted Damascus in the barrel that I can tell. Just some form of very tough iron. There were two other wall guns similar to mine at the same auction. When I drove to pick mine up, it was standing next to the other two waiting to be picked up. So I briefly looked at the other two. They looked virtually identical, except the difference in barrel length. Unlike the typical Torador we encounter, the barrels on these wall guns have very little taper. Which of course makes them heavier. But that was the general idea I guess. Like a heavy barreled target rifle.
As Pukka mentions, most of the typical Torador barrels I've encountered are twisted Damascus. Here is the barrel of my shooter after cleaning during restoration. The twist is very apparent.

Rick

Dear Rick. At the risk of being pedantic Ide say 'Twist' is just 'twist' unless it shows the multy' finger print 'effect then its' Damascus' proper, If both have multy variants .The' Damascus' name I think was more to do with Swords from a Western angle And both I think are good . Now Where did I put my Squair student hat ?.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Wooops. Forgot the pics....

View attachment 320335View attachment 320336

What a Beauty ! Ime currently stocking up a very long & heavy barrel no idea origin but a twist & oriental looking rear sight . Ile solder on a pan but make no other additions like loops It came via the 'Correy' haul & was once drum & nippled yet its bore is excellent .No logic it just begged to be used up & when I pop off it will fetch more. And be fun in the interim.
Rascally Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

show us some pictures somewhere, Rudyard old cobber!

here is one with a form that may be termed 'Damascus" ... Not mine though!

 

[Rudyard]

show us some pictures somewhere, Rudyard old cobber!

here is one with a form that may be termed 'Damascus" ... Not mine though!View attachment 320705

Dear Pukka That barrel ide agree is on the exotic border of twist & Damascus as we know it best from19th c and before in a European context .I draw a view between what most cheerfully called ' Damascus' when the gun is not more that a varient ' Stub twist .' There are a range, Well their where, of' twist' but that multiple wraps of' Finger print' like patterns is in my view' Damascus' proper . Would you agree or am I being pedantic ?.
I think you mean the new one ime bashing out plus the' got up 'Omani style stocked but on what I think is an un used Indian barrel, Both ex Major Noel Corry's haul .'

.All hail the Galloping Major and the fate that he had too take all the presumably confiscated barrels held in police stations. When all he went for was Persian contract Artillery lugers . Full confirmed details I don't have but that was the story and it makes sense . I think it was mainly in Kurdish regions and under the Shar at that time. Nobody likes Kurds (Except Little Miss Moffitt with a side order of whey , She didn't like sociable Spiders apparently .) I tangled with Kurds I don't like them either . However I digress.' little Lawrence Greenaway s' got nothing on me'.
For those not familiar with Pam Aryes Ile add the context viz
"Little Lawrence Greenaway he tended to digress" Would allways tell you rather more instead of rather less . Of wild exageration he was never known to tire . All facts became irrelevant ,In Short he was a Lier . He says "Ime in computers" " You name the sort We gottem !" whereas in fact he only screwed the castors on the bottom .
Being incurably poetic ,Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Pukka That barrel ide agree is on the exotic border of twist & Damascus as we know it best from19th c and before in a European context .I draw a view between what most cheerfully called ' Damascus' when the gun is not more that a varient ' Stub twist .' There are a range, Well their where, of' twist' but that multiple wraps of' Finger print' like patterns is in my view' Damascus' proper . Would you agree or am I being pedantic ?.
I think you mean the new one ime bashing out plus the' got up 'Omani style stocked but on what I think is an un used Indian barrel, Both ex Major Noel Corry's haul .'

.All hail the Galloping Major and the fate that he had too take all the presumably confiscated barrels held in police stations. When all he went for was Persian contract Artillery lugers . Full confirmed details I don't have but that was the story and it makes sense . I think it was mainly in Kurdish regions and under the Shar at that time. Nobody likes Kurds (Except Little Miss Moffitt with a side order of whey , She didn't like sociable Spiders apparently .) I tangled with Kurds I don't like them either . However I digress.' little Lawrence Greenaway s' got nothing on me'.
For those not familiar with Pam Aryes Ile add the context viz
"Little Lawrence Greenaway he tended to digress" Would allways tell you rather more instead of rather less . Of wild exageration he was never known to tire . All facts became irrelevant ,In Short he was a Lier . He says "Ime in computers" " You name the sort We gottem !" whereas in fact he only screwed the castors on the bottom .
Being incurably poetic ,Regards Rudyard

Thank you I thought it witty well the little Miss Muffit bit at least .

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rudyard,
Yes the one I show is a variant of the stub twist, so not a true two or three stripe damascus. I have seen them on Indian arms, but don't know if I saved a picture.

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard,
Yes the one I show is a variant of the stub twist, so not a true two or three stripe damascus. I have seen them on Indian arms, but don't know if I saved a picture.

The more I look at these barrels the more I am in Awe at the skill involved .Its like the late sailing ships 'Beauty in hardest action, Beauty indeed ' What Ide like to know is what acids where used to heighten the Figure. Ime thinking controlled Sulphuric but don't know . Rigby was the first English Well Irish maker of these barrels according to J .N. George c 1840 or twenty could look it up .My copy travelled with me , that & Kipling .if at different times
Cheers Me

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Rudyard, I used to know what they used as an etchant, but forgot!
I know it sounded pretty savage but really made the twist stand out.
Of course, others used just an acid to make the twist show, but not etched like Rick's example.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Rudyard, I used to know what they used as an etchant, but forgot!
I know it sounded pretty savage but really made the twist stand out.
Of course, others used just an acid to make the twist show, but not etched like Rick's example.

Dear Pukka .Its the deep stuff I want to restore dressed off areas One barrel Ken Steggles had fine bored but dressed off some of the rear flats Nice 26" Oct swamped Damascus . shame not to restore it eh ? Cheers Me

 

[rickystl]

The only information I've been able to read on the making of the Torador barrels is from Lord Egerton of Tatton's book. There may be other tiny bits of information here and there, but nothing substantial. They just didn't keep European style records building guns. So it's left to us to study the barrels/guns themselves to try to come up with logical conclusions. One thing seems certain: Over many decades the local barrel makers seemed to have made continuous improvements in barrel strength, Damascus or not. Even for then using somewhat primitive methods. Cutting the barrel of the wall gun did show some very tough iron.

Rick