4F Black Powder Question

[Cattman]

i like the way 4f makes a rifle report go crack. seem like i read that in days gone by the rifles used to crack. so the books say. i bet their is no unburned powder on the snow with 4fa.

 

[user 36911]

I prefer a boom.

 

[azmntman]

Im a crACK GUY

 

[RAEDWALD]

I think we have the classic misunderstanding of a debated 'argument'.

To some an argument is something you must win and your opponent must give in and agree with you.

To the more genteel a debated 'argument' is one where you present your point of view, listen politely to other points of view and consider whether you should change your opinion and offer counter arguments in support of your opinion. All involved make up their own mind on the subject of debate. No one 'wins' or 'loses' but benefits from hearing what others think and take on board anything new to modify their own opinion.

It is a debate not a bar fight. The last one standing has not won.

I have given my opinion in earlier posts and retain it but I do not require others to agree with me. Nor do I expect others to force me to agree with them.

 

[FishDFly]

"with no problems, and even included a photo of a can of GOEX 4f which clearly states on the label "For Use in Pistols, Rifles, Muskets and Shotguns", I must ask them, "Based on what is printed on the can, would you say this powder is also safe to be used in a cannon as a main powder charge?""

For those who like to read, the printed labels on the front and back of Swiss cans read exactly the same for 1Fg. and NullB.

For those who do not know what NullB is, it is the same as 7F.

Who thinks it would be safe to use NullB in rifles as their main charge?

Folks should really listen to Rich Pierce and Zonie!

 

[azmntman]

When I see the guys who are saying things like, "While those using common sense that use it as a main charge have provided evidence of excellent results repeatedly over a period of years with no problems, and even included a photo of a can of GOEX 4f which clearly states on the label "For Use in Pistols, Rifles, Muskets and Shotguns", I must ask them, "Based on what is printed on the can, would you say this powder is also safe to be used in a cannon as a main powder charge?"

View attachment 34925

?????????? SAYS RIGHT THAR IN THE PRINTED SECTION ITS SUITABLE FOR MUSKETS AND cannons??????

 

[Grenadier1758]

I raise you an F and call.

In my unit we use it as the blank charge for our cannons. We do use it as the blank and ball charge for our Land Pattern Muskets.

 

[Zonie]

In my unit we use it as the blank charge for our cannons. We do use it as the blank and ball charge for our Land Pattern Muskets.

I must have forgot to see where it said, "For reenacting with muskets or cannons and firing blank powder loads, Suitable For Muskets and Cannons".

Oh! Wait !!! It doesn't mention reenacting or shooting blanks.

I'll agree that 5F might be suitable for blanks but I don't think I would want to load 60 grains of that stuff under a 566 grain Minie' bullet in any of my Parker-Hale Enfields.

 

[Eterry]

As far as reducing loads when using ffffg, as a late teen/ early 20s Male I didn't reduce the loads. As I've said, this was in the mid 80s, things were simpler then.

When I got my musketoon, I made friends with a skirmisher with many years experience. He said most skirmishers used fffg, because they could get more shots per pound. He brought me 5lbs of fffg from the Winchester shoot.

I dug out my Lyman black powder Handbook, some love it, some hate it.

In the rifle/ musket section they delved into ffg vs fffg, shooting the same loads of powder in the same pressure barrel over a Chronograph.

I'll attach the pertinent pages, but for me, when I use fffg in my 58, I reduce my loads about 40%. That appears to be the amount of difference the tests conducted by Lyman showed, as I understand.

If I was to use ffffg as a main charge, I would decrease by the same amount.

 

[Carbon 6]

How did they weigh the charges, by volume or by scale ?

 

[rodwha]

I’ve tried to stay out of it but cannot.

To anyone who is using 4F and has no issues and feels safe doing so- best of luck to you. I will not try to convince you to desist. But please just state your experience and do not advise or imply that it is “safe” in all circumstances.

To anyone not using 4F except as flint priming: I applaud your doing things the traditional way that has proven safe for centuries.

Where does that leave people using it in their large caliber revolvers as was historical?

 

[Eterry]

Carbon6, That's a great question. On page 85 right below the charts it says "weight for weight 3f does produce greater velocity and pressure". So i'm gonna assume they weighed each charge.

 

[Grenadier1758]

For the tests in the First edition of the Lyman Loading Manual, the charges were all either G-O (Gearhardt-Owen now GOEX) or Curtis and Harvey in either 3fg or 2fg granulation for rifle length barrels. The manual states that the charges were weighed.

In the second edition, the charges were as measured by volume as Pyrodex was added and Curtis and Harvey powders were not in production.

 

[nkbj]

?????????? SAYS RIGHT THAR IN THE PRINTED SECTION ITS SUITABLE FOR MUSKETS AND cannons??????

Ah, but did it mention what you might be putting on top of that powder?


Really guys, this thread went off the rails when common sense got stomped to death by the joy of bickering.
Anybody involved with assembling charges for firearms needs to know that they can blow themselves up. The more energetic the powder and the heavier the bullet then the closer you're getting. We just need to make sure that we know what we're doing. Make sure you really do know.

That said, the price was irresistible and I've used Jacks Battle in percussion revolvers, flintlocks and percussion rifles. When it works it works and when it don't I shoots me some FFg or FFFg.

 

[nkbj]

I must have forgot to see where it said, "For reenacting with muskets or cannons and firing blank powder loads, Suitable For Muskets and Cannons".

Oh! Wait !!! It doesn't mention reenacting or shooting blanks.

I'll agree that 5F might be suitable for blanks but I don't think I would want to load 60 grains of that stuff under a 566 grain Minie' bullet in any of my Parker-Hale Enfields.

I know'd dats right! There's not much chance I'd be loading 5F like 3F.



Something about Jacks Battle observed in percussion revolvers, with the same volume of powder you get lower velocities. Now, if all things were equal you'd suspect that higher initial pressures in short barrels would give higher velocities. And, assuredly that's true. So what's going on? I have come to believe that there being less energy per volume is the only answer.

 

[Carbon 6]

Where does that leave people using it in their large caliber revolvers as was historical?

You are only taking into account "grade". You are ignoring formulation and strength. Also, the letter grading system didn't exist back then.

 

[Carbon 6]

Carbon6, That's a great question. On page 85 right below the charts it says "weight for weight 3f does produce greater velocity and pressure". So i'm gonna assume they weighed each charge.

I saw that too, but assumed they were making a 2f vs. 3f comparison when they said that and not describing the measurement process.

 

[user 36911]

Goex 3F 65gr and PRB is plenty for muley and is pleasant to shoot in an Isaac Haines .54.

When I say plenty. I mean at the ranges I can see primitive open sights.

 

[rodwha]

You are only taking into account "grade". You are ignoring formulation and strength. Also, the letter grading system didn't exist back then.

Hazard’s Pistol Powder, which was found in the Hazards’s paper cartridges during the war were found to be as powerful as Swiss’s 4F. Formulation? I don’t have a clue.

I also don’t know a thing about the various powders dumped from late 19th century metallic cartridges that were 4F and finer, just that it was as witnessed by the museum curator on our forum who dumped them.

But I do know that 4F Swiss is commonly used in revolvers in Europe. Swiss had marketed their 4F powder for handguns for a very long time as witnessed by their prior cans.

 

[TNGhost]

4f is historically and period correct for muskets, pistols, rifles and shotguns.