4F Black Powder Question

[SDSmlf]

For those who don't know Nitrate is not the same as nitride. Black poder is charcoal sulfur and potassium nitrate. Not Nitride or Nitrite

What is this ‘Black poder’ you speak of?

 

[TNGhost]

Getting back to Mad Monk's post about his findings with 4F powder, I think it explains something that bothers me about the results of the Lyman tests that used 4F powder as a main charge.

As Mad Monk mentions, the exposed surface area of 4F powder is around 1.5 X greater than 3F powder so, 4F should burn faster and create a much greater breech pressure right after it ignites. According to the Lyman data, it doesn't. It's breech pressure is close to that of 3F powder.

He does mention that the smaller granules do have less air space between them and there seems to be a lot of loose graphite mixed into 4F powder. A reduced air space between the granules could slow down the flame front as it passes thru the un-burned powder.

Is it possible that the combination of the smaller air space between the granules plus the presence of a significant amount of basically non-combustible graphite slows down the entire ignition process? That could result in lower breech pressures similar to the results Lyman found.

If the graphite is a factor in reducing the burning rate of 4F powder in a main charge, that brings up the question, is the amount of graphite controlled? Or is it just the product of whatever's left over after the glazing** process is done?

If it is just whatever is left over, then it's possible that the amount of graphite present in 4F powder could vary greatly making one batch of 4F quite safe as a main charge and another batch of 4F powder, shall we say, more risky?

**Glazing is the tumbling process that breaks off the sharp corners on the corned powder. Corning is the process of breaking up the large pressed cake of powder. Mad Monk, in one of his write-ups says, "Graphite is added to the powder, dusted on, to increase screening rates."

So why then would the amount of graphite in 1f, 2f or 3f not "vary greatly" causing the same effect?

Being as that observation of "mad monk" would seem decades old and powder manufacturing processes have improved and brands vary greatly from one to another (Hell GOEX and Ole Eyensford are made by the same people, with the same recommendations given, and I don't think anyone here would disagree they are substantially different grade for grade) I really don't think we can rely on those observations.

If he was an "expert" and employee and adviser for a powder company and worked in their lab, why is it he is relating anecdotal evidence and not actual specific test results and data?

And I am still trying to figure out what Rasputin has to do with this whole thing.

 

[user 36911]

For those who don't know Nitrate is not the same as nitride. Black poder is charcoal sulfur and potassium nitrate. Not Nitride or Nitrite

You may be referring to my post and you're absolutely right. I do know the difference and that's what I get for not proof reading my post.

 

[TNGhost]

I am glad to show you something you have never seen before. Below are photographs of both sides of the same can of ‘Superfine Black Rifle Powder’. Note the ‘fine print’ underlined in yellow in the second photo. SUITABLE MUSKETS PISTOLS & SHOTGUNS.
View attachment 33649
View attachment 33650

You know it takes a special kind of stubborn for folks to argue something for 15 pages after photographic evidence proves them wrong.

 

[user 36911]

So why then would the amount of graphite in 1f, 2f or 3f not "vary greatly" causing the same effect?

Being as that observation of "mad monk" would seem decades old and powder manufacturing processes have improved and brands vary greatly from one to another (Hell GOEX and Ole Eyensford are made by the same people, with the same recommendations given, and I don't think anyone here would disagree they are substantially different grade for grade) I really don't think we can rely on those observations.

If he was an "expert" and employee and adviser for a powder company and worked in their lab, why is it he is relating anecdotal evidence and not actual specific test results and data?

And I am still trying to figure out what Rasputin has to do with this whole thing.

Do you ever stop making assumptions? You don't seem to be happy unless you're putting Bill down and please don't say you aren't again. Next, you'll act like Trump and tell us your kidding.

 

[user 36911]

You know it takes a special kind of stubborn for folks to argue something for 15 pages after photographic evidence proves them wrong.

True and you sure are stubborn.

 

[TNGhost]

Do you ever stop making assumptions? You don't seem to be happy unless you're putting Bill down and please don't say you aren't again. Next, you'll act like Trump and tell us your kidding.

So far I haven't seen anything to indicate "Bill" is participating in this conversation.

I have detected a case of TDS it seems though.

 

[user 36911]

So far I haven't seen anything to indicate "Bill" is participating in this conversation.

I have detected a case of TDS it seems though.

He knows I posted his posts here, so he is participating.

 

[nhmoose]

A lot of assumptions again. Blowing smoke.

btw.....You appear to be the one emotional. I could care less if you blow yourself up. You really like 4F eh? Calm down.

What forum and just who is Mad Monk? You seem to be the very emotional one in this thread. Why?

 

[nhmoose]

Actually, Mad Monk (William Knight) is one of the foremost authorities on black powder in the world. He's spent his life working with it, testing it and advising major black powder companies around the world about the best ways to manufacture black powder.

I am somewhat surprised that TNGhost has never heard of him.

I've been in BP since the 70's and also never heard of him.

I have been in the gun Business for years, I know many in it and still don't know Mad Monk.

Is he the guy from Knight Rifles???

 

[user 36911]

What forum and just who is Mad Monk? You seem to be the very emotional one in this thread. Why?

Then why am I calm and smiling most of the time? I guess that's an emotion. You should read the thread if you don't know who Mad Monk is at this point.

 

[Carbon 6]

Getting back to Mad Monk's post about his findings with 4F powder, I think it explains something that bothers me about the results of the Lyman tests that used 4F powder as a main charge.

As Mad Monk mentions, the exposed surface area of 4F powder is around 1.5 X greater than 3F powder so, 4F should burn faster and create a much greater breech pressure right after it ignites. According to the Lyman data, it doesn't. It's breech pressure is close to that of 3F powder.

He does mention that the smaller granules do have less air space between them and there seems to be a lot of loose graphite mixed into 4F powder. A reduced air space between the granules could slow down the flame front as it passes thru the un-burned powder.

Is it possible that the combination of the smaller air space between the granules plus the presence of a significant amount of basically non-combustible graphite slows down the entire ignition process? That could result in lower breech pressures similar to the results Lyman found.

If the graphite is a factor in reducing the burning rate of 4F powder in a main charge, that brings up the question, is the amount of graphite controlled? Or is it just the product of whatever's left over after the glazing** process is done?

If it is just whatever is left over, then it's possible that the amount of graphite present in 4F powder could vary greatly making one batch of 4F quite safe as a main charge and another batch of 4F powder, shall we say, more risky?

**Glazing is the tumbling process that breaks off the sharp corners on the corned powder. Corning is the process of breaking up the large pressed cake of powder. Mad Monk, in one of his write-ups says, "Graphite is added to the powder, dusted on, to increase screening rates."

I don't think so, and I haven't noticed any excess graphite to act as a retardant.
Typically the smaller the granules the faster the burn rate. Burn rate is also ******** by the amount of residual moisture in the BP. (there is always residual moisture and BP is hygroscopic.) The shape pf the granule also speeds or ******* the burn rate.

But, the question I wonder is "where was the pressure transducer located in Lyman's tests?

4f has higher initial pressure but that pressure drops quickly as the ball starts moving. Whereas, 3f,2f, or 1f will sustain their pressure longer.

 

[TNGhost]

I've been in BP since the 70's and also never heard of him.

I have been in the gun Business for years, I know many in it and still don't know Mad Monk.

Is he the guy from Knight Rifles???

I never got an answer as to whether he is "Tony" of Knights rifles.

Reader's Digest version:

According to some here he is a vaunted expert on all things black powder who worked for a Brazilian powder company and advised other powder companies some decades ago.

According to others he is of questionable reputation.

I simply question why MtnMan is surrogate posting for him and why in those posts there are only anecdotal statements and no lab results or data and truly nothing that connects with the question posed in the OP of whether 4f can be used as a main charge load..

 

[Carbon 6]

What forum and just who is Mad Monk? You seem to be the very emotional one in this thread. Why?

He use to be on this forum. I can't believe you guys never heard of him.

 

[SDSmlf]

But, the question I wonder is "where was the pressure transducer located in Lyman's tests?

Lyman did not use a pressure transducer, rather they used the technology of the day, a piece of lead that was crushed (lead crusher method) with a specially modified barrel or chamber, and published ‘LUP’ values, Lead Units of Pressure’.

 

[Carbon 6]

Lyman did not use a pressure transducer, rather they used the technology of the day, a piece of lead that was crushed (lead crusher method) with a specially modified barrel or chamber, and published ‘LUP’ values, Lead Units of Pressure’.

Transducer or lead my reason for asking remains the same. I wonder if location was a factor.
The lower pressure of 4f should be an anomaly not the norm.

 

[nhmoose]

Then why am I calm and smiling most of the time? I guess that's an emotion. You should read the thread if you don't know who Mad Monk is at this point.

So am I and posting as I read the post. Still you are emotional about it.

 

[SDSmlf]

Transducer or lead my reason for asking remains the same. I wonder if location was a factor.
The lower pressure of 4f should be an anomaly not the norm.

From my first edition copy of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook, page 69. Not many options as far as where to put the lead.

 

[Carbon 6]

Thanks for posting that, I gave away my book to a greenhorn years ago.

Can you post the page with the pressures ?

 

[SDSmlf]

Thanks for posting that, I gave away my book to a greenhorn years ago.

Can you post the page with the pressures ?

This is what I previously posted. Note that numbers are LUPs and not actual pressures