4F Black Powder Question

[Carbon 6]

Thanks again, it is puzzling, but i do see one small discrepancy in the data.
Did you notice it ?

 

[SDSmlf]

Thanks again, it is puzzling, but i do see one small discrepancy in the data.
Did you notice it ?

Believe it was discussed earlier in this thread.

 

[Carbon 6]

I see something else that raises my eyebrow.
Lyman's data leaves me with more questions than answers.

 

[Eterry]

Like many here, I've been reloading a long time, over 40years. I have a bookshelf full of loading manuals, seems every bullet and power manufacturer prints one to get in on the game.

You can go blind reading and end up pulling out all your hair if you look for the same data to have the same results in different manuals.

That's why I bought a chronograph. It helps clear the air, a little. But it too, can raise questions as well.

I see what i hope is simply typos in almost every manual, Lyman's included. I just look at the line above and below the typo and make a SWAG.
Works for me.

Also, i'm thinking by now the OP has either shot the whole can of ffffg , or had taken up knitting.

 

[DAKurth1]

I have read somewhere, that if you typically load 2f powder, but want to switch to 3f, you should reduce your load of 3f by 12 to 15% of your 2f load to achieve the same muzzle velocity (pressure).
It stands to reason that a large piece of wood will burn slower than a smaller piece of wood. How rapidly something in a confined space will burn will be a determining factor in how quickly and to what extent the expanding products of combustion will result in the build up of internal pressure.
It would therefore stand to reason, that if one chose to load 4f instead of 3f, one would further reduce their 4f load some percentage to achieve approximately the same muzzle velocity and pressures as with the 3f load.
Why then, in the interest of frugality, not load a main charge with 4f?
I believe the issue to be one of potential safety.
Set your powder measure to a previous 2f setting by mistake and load 4f instead?
Double charge by mistake?
These errors might not result in a blown barrel, but could one blow out a nipple or bolster?
CAN you load and shoot 4f as a main charge? Certainly.
SHOULD you? The risks involved are up to each individual to evaluate.
For me, it’s a no brainer!

 

[Grenadier1758]

I've been in BP since the 70's and also never heard of him.

I have been in the gun Business for years, I know many in it and still don't know Mad Monk.

Is he the guy from Knight Rifles???

Bill Knight the "Mad Monk" is NOT the Bill Knight of Knight Rifles.

Bill posted for many years (1990's) on the Old Muzzle Loaders' Wall.

As the Mad Monk, Bill has been posting on the American Long Rifles Forum.

Bill Knight has authored several pamphlets on browning formulae for applying to barrels.

If you haven't heard of him, your have been in different specialties of the muzzleloading world.

 

[Cattman]

i like reading all this for some reason, however now im really confused. i like the reply about the less you know the more you think you know. and those who do know things realize they have a lot more to learn. in life that is very true. as for me i only know what i know and nothing more at all. mistakes gave me some knowledge. as for 4f, im not afraid of it in a good modern steel barrel. some of the barrels i used for 45 cal muzzleloaders were the same steel for a 458 mag. never ever would use smokeless in a muzzleloader.knew one guy who shot it in his thompson hawken 45 roundball gun and won matches. never stood close to him. dont know how he got away with it. dont know also what kind of smokeless he used. that was back in the 70/s. i think he died of natural causes.

 

[mlshooter]

First, it is important to remember that ALL black powders, regardless of manufacture and grain size can only produce a maximum pressure consistent with their chemical composition, and this is in the order of 64,000 PSI for a completely confined solid block of powder, with granulated powder producing about half that.

As far as the effect of granulation, it is quite easy to demonstrate that finer grained powders develop pressures faster than coarser grained ones. For those who have access to an eprouvette, simply load it with powders of the same make but different granulation. Eprouvettes measure the 'impulse' generated by powder and were essentail tools to the shooter in the days where there was a lot of variation in powder quality.

I used an original flint eprouvette (holding about 3 grains of powder) with several granulations of Swiss powder, and the 1F just 'poofed' moved the lever one or two notches. The 2F moved it to half-scale, and the 3F created a 'boom' so loud it deafened me for a couple of hours (I wasn't expecting that...). For those without an eprouvette, simply drill a 1/4" X 1/4" hole in a stump, fill it with powder and place a can over it - same principle, and probably more fun

For a lot more information on black powder combustion, see here: Black Powder

 

[Crow-Feather]

The proof is in the fact that although many experiments to cause barrels to burst have failed, failed using black powder of any grade to huge doses and pressure increases. Relative proof comes from powder manufacturers of fine black powder not giving warnings on their product against certain uses. To the contrary some containers old and new suggest a wide range of use.

You and others keep mentioning smokeless powders which is folly.
Traditional muzzleloaders do explode from misuse with smokeless. Why? Because those powders most definitely can produce pressures scores of thousands of pressure units above 4f.
Even if smokeless was used in small amounts it's still dangerous due to the exposure by the user of the nipple or vent. Many just don't get the difference between black and smokeless.

I will add how strange it is that the na sayers are now asking for proof it has not happened, an accident attributed to 4f. Really.......there won't be any because it seems it doesn't happen. If it did the na sayers would already of submitted it no!

Is a catastrophic failure necessary to adopt a rationale for not using 4f ?

I poured it in my flintlock and it flowed right out the vent hole. If enough flows out without resetting the ball you are left with a ball off the powder charge situation.

I was at Rondy this weekend and a young man said that he WAS STRUCK IN THE FACE BY SOMETHING WHEN HE SHOT. Turns out that the pressure blew through the nipple vent into the young man's face. And no, I didn't ask.

Sort of like a first man on a bungee jump. AHHHHHH thump. Joe, shorten the rope and give the wife a free T shirt.

 

[Carbon 6]

Muzzleloading is so much fun

 

[TNGhost]

I have read somewhere, that if you typically load 2f powder, but want to switch to 3f, you should reduce your load of 3f by 12 to 15% of your 2f load to achieve the same muzzle velocity (pressure).
It stands to reason that a large piece of wood will burn slower than a smaller piece of wood. How rapidly something in a confined space will burn will be a determining factor in how quickly and to what extent the expanding products of combustion will result in the build up of internal pressure.
It would therefore stand to reason, that if one chose to load 4f instead of 3f, one would further reduce their 4f load some percentage to achieve approximately the same muzzle velocity and pressures as with the 3f load.
Why then, in the interest of frugality, not load a main charge with 4f?
I believe the issue to be one of potential safety.
Set your powder measure to a previous 2f setting by mistake and load 4f instead?
Double charge by mistake?
These errors might not result in a blown barrel, but could one blow out a nipple or bolster?
CAN you load and shoot 4f as a main charge? Certainly.
SHOULD you? The risks involved are up to each individual to evaluate.
For me, it’s a no brainer!

Yet none of the 4faphobes in this thread have provided on shred of evidence that it is usafe.

While those using common sense that use it as a main charge have provided evidence of excellent results repeatedly over a period of years with no problems, and even included a photo of a can of GOEX 4f which clearly states on the label "For Use in Pistols, Rifles, Muskets and Shotguns".

And that is where we are at.

A bunch of fearful nancies trying to tell others that they are "dangerous"

 

[TNGhost]

Bill Knight the "Mad Monk" is NOT the Bill Knight of Knight Rifles.

Bill posted for many years (1990's) on the Old Muzzle Loaders' Wall.

As the Mad Monk, Bill has been posting on the American Long Rifles Forum.

Bill Knight has authored several pamphlets on browning formulae for applying to barrels.

If you haven't heard of him, your have been in different specialties of the muzzleloading world.

So why is he not posting here himself and why is MtnMan surrogate posting for him by retyping his posts from another forum, providing no references and no links to any corroborating data?

Not that anything MtnMan has posted claiming to be from "mad monk" has anything whatsoever to do with 4f being "unsafe" as a main charge.

 

[user 36911]

Maybe he doesn't want to deal with you.

btw...What are your credentials to be such an authority?

 

[azmntman]

Seems this thread is going south (can we still say that?).

I, being a 47 year+ hands-on expert in the field, would state that one should measure, pour and fire whatever they wish (other than smokeless) and enjoy the day. Nuff said? Cool,

now I should find out if we were drawn for deer this weekend. Shall we argue which rifle/caliber would be best? Seems all the arguing here has come by 3-4 times and aint a piss worth of change in anyone's position and nobodies been converted (or blown up).

 

[nkbj]

I raise you an F and call.

 

[user 36911]

Just pour in the powder and let it rip!

 

[Carbon 6]

GOEX 4f which clearly states on the label "For Use in Pistols, Rifles, Muskets and Shotguns".

That doesn't necessarily mean "in the barrel". Every current manufacturer of 4f recommends it for priming flintlocks only.

Goex quote;
"Goex FFFFg (or 4Fg) is suited for Priming Powder for Flintlocks. "
https://goexpowder.com/goex-fffg-2/
I posted Swiss above in another post.
https://schuetzenpowder.com/swiss-black-powder/

 

[rich pierce]

I’ve tried to stay out of it but cannot.

To anyone who is using 4F and has no issues and feels safe doing so- best of luck to you. I will not try to convince you to desist. But please just state your experience and do not advise or imply that it is “safe” in all circumstances.

To anyone not using 4F except as flint priming: I applaud your doing things the traditional way that has proven safe for centuries.

 

[Zonie]

When I see the guys who are saying things like, "While those using common sense that use it as a main charge have provided evidence of excellent results repeatedly over a period of years with no problems, and even included a photo of a can of GOEX 4f which clearly states on the label "For Use in Pistols, Rifles, Muskets and Shotguns", I must ask them, "Based on what is printed on the can, would you say this powder is also safe to be used in a cannon as a main powder charge?"

 

[Carbon 6]

I raise you an F and call.

Do you know how to decode the letters on the top of the can ?

Jack's is re-branded Goex.