500 Yards, Stock 1:48 Twist TC Renegade .50 Cal

[Idaholewis]

Idaholelewis, I Enjoyed your post!!
Question regarding the lyman 57SML site?
Did you have to modify anything to affix the site to the tang? I have a few TC rifles and would love to try that!

There is some Modification required, it is a simple task, i have done MANY of them. This is what you need to do to the 57SML Base, i do this with a Dremel Tool and a Course sanding Wheel, just takes a minute to do

And if your Tang is not drilled & tapped (some where, some weren’t) it will need to be, Drill & Tap to 8-32


It is an easy, straight forward process. First thing, is the Tang on your Rifle Drilled and Tapped for a Peep? TC Made some of Both, Some Tangs came Tapped for a Peep from the Factory, and Some Did not, out of my MANY Renegades and Hawkens only 1 of mine was Factory Drilled and Tapped, all of my others Required me to do it.

Not Drilled and Tapped for Peep. If your Tang is like this one you will need to Drill and Tap it to 8-32

Factory Drilled and Tapped for Peep, they added a Plug to protect the Threads.

The Lyman 57 Base will need to be Modified so that it Clears the Forward Wrist Wood of the Renegade.

It will look like this when you are done with it, i use a Dremel with a Sanding Wheel, takes about 2 minutes to do this. You can paint this black, or ignore it, it is Aluminum therefore will not Rust and this is Hidden as you will see below

Here you can See how it Clears the Forward Wrist Wood of this Renegade.

This is a FUZZY Picture of a Lyman 57 on 1 of my Hawkens, i did not have to do the Above sight base Mod on this Rifle, it Cleared after i added the Required Front Washers to take out the “Forward Tilt” here you can see the Corner that needs to be Removed from the Sight Base for Renegade installation. The Hawkens are a Bit thinner Through the Wrist of the Stock than the Renegades, Some Hawkens do not need the Sight Base Mod, But so far all Renegades i have worked with do, The Forward Wrist Wood of the Renegade’s are a Bit Thicker.

See the Corner on the underside of the 57 Sight Base i am Talking about here? Look between this pic and the 1 above

Drilling and tapping for Peep sight, How to find Dead Center of Tang

This is for education purposes only, You would be doing this with the Tang out of your Rifle of Course! This is just to Show you how to EASILY find Center of the Tang.

First, Measure the width of the Tang, all of the TC’s i have done Measure .500 across, Measure and make sure.

Now that we know the Tang is .500 Across, half of that is .250, Adjust calipers to .250 and Lock them down. With my Stainless calipers i can lightly Scribe a line here. Even if your Tang Measures Slightly Different than .500 just Take whatever the Full width measurement is and Cut that in Half

Now Flip the Calipers over and check from the other side, you will note the Lightly scribed line will match perfectly from this side :lewis: This is DEAD CENTER of your Tang.

All that’s left to do now is place the Lyman 57 on the Tang, use the Rear Tang Screw Through the 57 Base, This will Hold it FIRMLY in place, use a pencil and Mark the Front sight Base hole. Now Drill and Tap to 8-32, You can buy this Bit and Tap in a Kit, this is mine

And lastly, Taking the Tilt/Forward lean out of the Lyman 57

First, Push the Button, pull the Slider out and set it aside. The Lyman 57 has a Nice Flat Top surface, use this to your advantage

The Lyman 57 Has a Tendency to Lean Forward, Lay a flat edge on the Top of the Lyman 57’s Flat Base and you will find that it Leans/tilts forward, Like this

Here is How I correct Lean/Tilt (All of my Rifles are like this) I use Stainless Washers that are the Width of the Tang, and the 8-32 Screw will just fit through the Washer hole. On average, I ad 1 washer under the Rear of the Sight Base, and how ever many i need up Front to Correct the Forward Lean, This varies from Rifle to Rifle, You simply need to play around here and get the Base as Close as you possibly can, Being off a tiny bit one way or the other is Fine, all we are doing here is correcting the LARGEST of it.

Here is what i am Looking for, when i place a Straight edge on the top Flat surface of the Lyman 57 Base i want the Straight edge to Run as Close as possible to Straight in line with my Stock/Barrel, Like this

Might as well Strike while the Iron is Hot

How to install a Lyman 17 series Globe front Sight (Or Any Front Sight For that matter)

Things needed, Padded Vise, A Brass Drift Punch, and a 3 corner file with a “Safe Side” Both of these can be made at Home. A Modified Brass Bolt works fine, or better yet a piece of Round Stock brass about 3-4 inches long. The Brass Drift punch is so you Don’t damage the Barrel, Sight

It is VERY Likely your new 17 Globe Front sight will be to tight to fit your Dovetail, All of the Lyman 17 Globes i have done so far have been Tight, To tight, They needed Fitting to my Dovetail, Lyman makes them a little on the Large side so they can be fitted, 99.9% of Stock US Barrel Dovetails with be 3/8” (.375) The Lyman 17 Globes i have measured come in closer to .380
You can spend the BIG BUCKS and Buy an actual Gun Smithing Dovetail file like these, They have a “Safe Side” 1 of the 3 Flats is Smooth, this allows the file to slide back n forth in your Dovetail (Safe side down) and not cut, You are ONLY Cutting, enlarging the Dove Angle.
BROWNELLS 60° DOVETAIL STANDARD SLOT SIGHT BASE FILES | Brownells

Or you could get a Small 3 Corner file at your local Hardware like i chose to do, i ground 1 Cutting edge off Square on a Hard Bench mounted Belt Sander to make a “Safe Side” (mine is a Nicholson, AWESOME files :lewis

This is Somewhat of a Tedious process, GO SLOW and CHECK OFTEN!

If you only need a few Thou removed to fit, you can take it off the Bottom of the Sight Dove itself, I don’t recommend doing this if it’s Anymore than a few Thou, Any more than that and you need to Either Take material Away from the Front sight Dovetail (make it smaller) or Open the Barrel Dovetail (make it bigger) i have done both, i prefer slightly enlarging the Barrel Dovetail, I place the Barrel in a Padded Vise and Snug it up to do this.

On the other Hand, if your Front sight fits to loose in the Barrel Dovetail, If it is just loose enough that you don’t fully trust it from possibly moving, Use some Red Loctite! That will HOLD IT LIKE A ROCK, yet you can stil Drift it out. But if the Front sight is Quite loose, You will need to Build the Bottom of the Sight Dovetail up with Shim stock until you get it Tight.

NONE of this stuff is hard to do, grab the Bull by the Horns and do it! Quit Paying a Gunsmith to do these SIMPLE things!

 

[Idaholewis]

Why not cut off the QLA? That should fix it.

That would work Quite a bit of work involved. Cut & Re-Crown Barrel, Cut Underlug to fit, Re Drill & Tap for Underlug, And Cut new Front sight Dovetail

 

[bubba.50]

There is some Modification required, it is a simple task, i have done MANY of them. This is what you need to do to the 57SML Base, i do this with a Dremel Tool and a Course sanding Wheel, just takes a minute to do

And if your Tang is not drilled & tapped (some where, some weren’t) it will need to be, Drill & Tap to 8-32


It is an easy, straight forward process. First thing, is the Tang on your Rifle Drilled and Tapped for a Peep? TC Made some of Both, Some Tangs came Tapped for a Peep from the Factory, and Some Did not, out of my MANY Renegades and Hawkens only 1 of mine was Factory Drilled and Tapped, all of my others Required me to do it.

Not Drilled and Tapped for Peep. If your Tang is like this one you will need to Drill and Tap it to 8-32

Factory Drilled and Tapped for Peep, they added a Plug to protect the Threads.

The Lyman 57 Base will need to be Modified so that it Clears the Forward Wrist Wood of the Renegade.

It will look like this when you are done with it, i use a Dremel with a Sanding Wheel, takes about 2 minutes to do this. You can paint this black, or ignore it, it is Aluminum therefore will not Rust and this is Hidden as you will see below

Here you can See how it Clears the Forward Wrist Wood of this Renegade.

This is a FUZZY Picture of a Lyman 57 on 1 of my Hawkens, i did not have to do the Above sight base Mod on this Rifle, it Cleared after i added the Required Front Washers to take out the “Forward Tilt” here you can see the Corner that needs to be Removed from the Sight Base for Renegade installation. The Hawkens are a Bit thinner Through the Wrist of the Stock than the Renegades, Some Hawkens do not need the Sight Base Mod, But so far all Renegades i have worked with do, The Forward Wrist Wood of the Renegade’s are a Bit Thicker.

See the Corner on the underside of the 57 Sight Base i am Talking about here? Look between this pic and the 1 above

Drilling and tapping for Peep sight, How to find Dead Center of Tang

This is for education purposes only, You would be doing this with the Tang out of your Rifle of Course! This is just to Show you how to EASILY find Center of the Tang.

First, Measure the width of the Tang, all of the TC’s i have done Measure .500 across, Measure and make sure.

Now that we know the Tang is .500 Across, half of that is .250, Adjust calipers to .250 and Lock them down. With my Stainless calipers i can lightly Scribe a line here. Even if your Tang Measures Slightly Different than .500 just Take whatever the Full width measurement is and Cut that in Half

Now Flip the Calipers over and check from the other side, you will note the Lightly scribed line will match perfectly from this side :lewis: This is DEAD CENTER of your Tang.

All that’s left to do now is place the Lyman 57 on the Tang, use the Rear Tang Screw Through the 57 Base, This will Hold it FIRMLY in place, use a pencil and Mark the Front sight Base hole. Now Drill and Tap to 8-32, You can buy this Bit and Tap in a Kit, this is mine

And lastly, Taking the Tilt/Forward lean out of the Lyman 57

First, Push the Button, pull the Slider out and set it aside. The Lyman 57 has a Nice Flat Top surface, use this to your advantage

The Lyman 57 Has a Tendency to Lean Forward, Lay a flat edge on the Top of the Lyman 57’s Flat Base and you will find that it Leans/tilts forward, Like this

Here is How I correct Lean/Tilt (All of my Rifles are like this) I use Stainless Washers that are the Width of the Tang, and the 8-32 Screw will just fit through the Washer hole. On average, I ad 1 washer under the Rear of the Sight Base, and how ever many i need up Front to Correct the Forward Lean, This varies from Rifle to Rifle, You simply need to play around here and get the Base as Close as you possibly can, Being off a tiny bit one way or the other is Fine, all we are doing here is correcting the LARGEST of it.

Here is what i am Looking for, when i place a Straight edge on the top Flat surface of the Lyman 57 Base i want the Straight edge to Run as Close as possible to Straight in line with my Stock/Barrel, Like this

Might as well Strike while the Iron is Hot

How to install a Lyman 17 series Globe front Sight (Or Any Front Sight For that matter)

Things needed, Padded Vise, A Brass Drift Punch, and a 3 corner file with a “Safe Side” Both of these can be made at Home. A Modified Brass Bolt works fine, or better yet a piece of Round Stock brass about 3-4 inches long. The Brass Drift punch is so you Don’t damage the Barrel, Sight

It is VERY Likely your new 17 Globe Front sight will be to tight to fit your Dovetail, All of the Lyman 17 Globes i have done so far have been Tight, To tight, They needed Fitting to my Dovetail, Lyman makes them a little on the Large side so they can be fitted, 99.9% of Stock US Barrel Dovetails with be 3/8” (.375) The Lyman 17 Globes i have measured come in closer to .380
You can spend the BIG BUCKS and Buy an actual Gun Smithing Dovetail file like these, They have a “Safe Side” 1 of the 3 Flats is Smooth, this allows the file to slide back n forth in your Dovetail (Safe side down) and not cut, You are ONLY Cutting, enlarging the Dove Angle.
BROWNELLS 60° DOVETAIL STANDARD SLOT SIGHT BASE FILES | Brownells

Or you could get a Small 3 Corner file at your local Hardware like i chose to do, i ground 1 Cutting edge off Square on a Hard Bench mounted Belt Sander to make a “Safe Side” (mine is a Nicholson, AWESOME files :lewis

This is Somewhat of a Tedious process, GO SLOW and CHECK OFTEN!

If you only need a few Thou removed to fit, you can take it off the Bottom of the Sight Dove itself, I don’t recommend doing this if it’s Anymore than a few Thou, Any more than that and you need to Either Take material Away from the Front sight Dovetail (make it smaller) or Open the Barrel Dovetail (make it bigger) i have done both, i prefer slightly enlarging the Barrel Dovetail, I place the Barrel in a Padded Vise and Snug it up to do this.

On the other Hand, if your Front sight fits to loose in the Barrel Dovetail, If it is just loose enough that you don’t fully trust it from possibly moving, Use some Red Loctite! That will HOLD IT LIKE A ROCK, yet you can stil Drift it out. But if the Front sight is Quite loose, You will need to Build the Bottom of the Sight Dovetail up with Shim stock until you get it Tight.

NONE of this stuff is hard to do, grab the Bull by the Horns and do it! Quit Paying a Gunsmith to do these SIMPLE things!

Listen to Lewis. It’s much easier than it seems. And I don’t how many fugly-*** Renegade stocks I’ve run across because they took the easy way out & rasped a big nasty gash in the stock.

 

[Dude]

Thanks Lewis! I see there are four different heights of the #17 front sight. Which would you recommend?

 

[zimmerstutzen]

You could order custom TC Encores and Contenders there which is why they called it a custom shop. The off the shelf muzzleloaders were just that, run of the mill production guns. Every mass manufacturing process occasionally produces a flawed ltem, and sometimes they slip through quality control. In the end YOU are the final quality control. YOU did not carefully inspect what you bought, and consequently screwed up and purchased a lemon. Instead of accepting the fact that you didn’t take care in examining your purchase, or admitting that at the time you did not have the knowledge to determine if what you were buying was faulty or not, you choose to disparage the manufacturer of what most agree is a truly excellent product. It’s time to put on your big boy pants and quit crying.

That is such bull! TC flintlocks were such crap that warranty claims cost TC a fortune. They kept replacing frizzens and locks, eventually had to alter the geometry of the flint locks for a better design, which did not fix the problem. IF TC is so great, why do they no longer honor their Life time warranty? LOL. They reneged on the Patriot Pistol warranty already back in the 1990's. (they claimed a fire prevented it. Not my problem, their contractual warranty to live up to, fire or not. BTW, the Judge here agreed..)

Didn't inspect? Such bull again, how do you inspect inside a sealed box that comes as a holiday gift? Why did Chuck Dixon refuse to carry new TC guns at Dixon's Muzzle loader Shop?

 

[Critter Getter]

 

[Dude]

Zimmer - you may have some good points and it's possible to understand your upset, however, this is not the place. There isn't much you can do about the injustice, and blackening the TC name at this point only makes you look like a jerk. On top of that, this discussion is about shooting the TC Hawken or Renegade percussion rifles, not the flints, so attacking TC for not honoring their warranty and poor quality in other areas isn't what this is about. Are you trying to bring us to the conclusion that Lewis is feeding us a line of garbage because EVERYTHING BP that came out of TC is junk?

I know this will sound really off base, but when a person is super critical (even though justified) it's because of things he himself has done.

 

[jfaldo]

Wow! It's interesting how such a simple post can turn into this. I'm one who does a lot of long range shooting with black powder, all be it with cartridge guns and see nothing suspect in the original post to warrant some of the comments on here. I've watched and participated in putting shots on steel at one mile with black powder so I know what the capabilities are. Also this is an esablished shoot and anyone of the naysayers are welcome to attend. Just requires showing up north of Lusk Wyoming to see it though it's over this year, but you can read all about on a particular cartridge rifle forum if you google it.

 

[jeepjohn637]

Idaholelewis,
Thanks for the detailed instructions to upgrade the sites on my renagade.
Love your post!

 

[Critter Getter]

I for one have never attempted any long range black powder shots but sure want to thank you Lewis for so freely sharing your experiences and knowledge with anyone that cares to watch or read your post. Very entertaining and informative. Greg

 

[TheBoat]

I used to have a Custom made Rifle that I really did not need but took it as a trade for a Chevy pickup truck. it was made special in the General Dynamics shop that could do 5,000. yard shots consistently. I had to sell it because I could not afford the Ammo over $10 a round at the time and totally unavalable at any price now. and I could only hit **** at 2,000. yards with it. that and the fact that I could barley pick it up and only walk a short distance with it. the guy that bought it put a $5,000. scope on it and custom handloads all his own ammo. he sent me pictures of some sheep he was shooting from the top of one mountain top to another that would take 5-6 hours to walk to after he finshed shooting. Think Ill stick to my old Smokepole that still can get a deer at 50 yards as thats about as far in the woods as you can see here in New England. and thats about my ability . need a scope on it but it would look funny on a caplock.

 

[SPQR70AD]

Thanks Lewis! I see there are four different heights of the #17 front sight. Which would you recommend?

always get the highest one and file it to match the rear site

 

[Buckabeer]

IdahoLewis, You are a generous Man !

 

[Crow-Feather]

View attachment 93925

LD

I don't know bout anyone else, but I would cut that puff ball off the top of my hat. Seems sorta girlie.

 

[SDSmlf]

Thanks Lewis! I see there are four different heights of the #17 front sight. Which would you recommend?

always get the highest one and file it to match the rear site

@SPQR70AD, curious how you file down the 17 ATC (sight on the left) to the height of 17 AHB (sight on the right mounted on the barrel)?

For setting up a TC with a Lyman 57 SML, I recommend the 17 AHB, the lowest or shortest Lyman in the 17 series of globe sights, about .404” from the bottom of the dovetail to the center of the sight. If you go with a higher front sight you will have to mount the rear sight quite high off the barrel. The 45 caliber TCs I have setup like this can go to 500 plus yards, but I typically only shoot them to 300 or so. Again, you CAN NOT file the Lyman 17 Globe Sight down, so DO NOT start with highest one.

 

[Bad Karma]

You have presumed to the point of foolishness sir.
I never mentioned 1200 yards, you did and I have no idea where in your imagination you plucked it from.
I never said I have hit a gong similar to the one used in Idaholewis's off hand.
Again I know not what part of your imagination is running away with your rational behaviour!

However, I have in the past made good shots off hand at long distances and it was fun and yes I guess very wasteful.
It's just that I have never done it with a muzzleloader.
While I am wasting my time answering you I will go on to say that I would not give a flying fig if after 10 shots I never hit the gong but if I got close to it off hand I would call it good.

If you’re enjoying yourself you’re not wasting powder, lead or time…

 

[Bad Karma]

@SPQR70AD, curious how you file down the 17 ATC (sight on the left) to the height of 17 AHB (sight on the right mounted on the barrel)? View attachment 94348
For setting up a TC with a Lyman 57 SML, I recommend the 17 AHB, the lowest or shortest Lyman in the 17 series of globe sights, about .404” from the bottom of the dovetail to the center of the sight. If you go with a higher front sight you will have to mount the rear sight quite high off the barrel. The 45 caliber TCs I have setup like this can go to 500 plus yards, but I typically only shoot them to 300 or so. Again, you CAN NOT file the Lyman 17 Globe Sight down, so DO NOT start with highest one.

I think, could be wrong, the ATC was designed to be used in conjunction with the TC vernier sight. That sight will not get low enough to be used with the AHB.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Idaholewis…. DO NOT STAND IN FRONT OF THIS MAN ! At any distance !!! If you can see him, he can see you….

Excellent shooting all around !

 

[Bad Karma]

I used to have a Custom made Rifle that I really did not need but took it as a trade for a Chevy pickup truck. it was made special in the General Dynamics shop that could do 5,000. yard shots consistently. I had to sell it because I could not afford the Ammo over $10 a round at the time and totally unavalable at any price now. and I could only hit Cranberries at 2,000. yards with it. that and the fact that I could barley pick it up and only walk a short distance with it. the guy that bought it put a $5,000. scope on it and custom handloads all his own ammo. he sent me pictures of some sheep he was shooting from the top of one mountain top to another that would take 5-6 hours to walk to after he finshed shooting. Think Ill stick to my old Smokepole that still can get a deer at 50 yards as thats about as far in the woods as you can see here in New England. and thats about my ability . need a scope on it but it would look funny on a caplock.

The second BS’r doesn’t stand a chance…

 

[SDSmlf]

I think, could be wrong, the ATC was designed to be used in conjunction with the TC vernier sight. That sight will not get low enough to be used with the AHB.

Believe you are correct about the ATC and many vernier rear sights, but I was recommending the shorter AHB for use with the Lyman 57. I mainly commented because another poster recommended getting the tallest 17 Globe and filing it down to match the rear sight.