American Mountain Men

[Snakebite]

I still have a job, which a lot of people should be grateful for because I'm paying their Social Security.

Thanks for that, but could you work a little harder? :wink:
Our Social Security checks are a little too small.



Thanks for your service atriot:




William Alexander

I'll try.

Hopefully in a year or two someone will be paying MY social security!!!

 

[Twisted_1in66]

And just look at that will ya! My social security is based upon how long I've contributed to social security and how much I've paid into it...about 53-years now for me. Not based at all on how long you have worked and paid.

Why they even provide a list of the income my social security tax was determined by over all those years...

Dang! Now if only I'd been able to put that amount of money into an IRA or 401K instead of paying into SS, I'd really be sitting pretty right now! :idunno:

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[torpedo]

It is unlikely that any gun purchased off the shelf will pass muster. Find/build a flintlock NW gun to get started, as these were available and are far less expensive than a period-correct rifle. Hawkens, despite all the hype and Hollywood, made their entrance towards the end of the Fur Trade (Mountain Man) era and were not common.

The Hawken was not common, but there were a few by late 40's.

 

[Grenadier1758]

That's one of the reasons I built a Derringer rifle.

Based on the drawings in the "Trade Rifle Sketch Book".

 

[old ugly]

I've been studying the AMM sites a good bit. Their dedication to the old arts and methods with regard to "how it was" is very interesting to me. AMM indicates they use flintlock rifles in their shoots, camps and pursuits.

I do not own a flintlock but do have a T/C Hawken since 1978 and have enjoyed it immensely since then. After 29 years of public service (and income) as a wild land firefighter for many summers I am now free to pursue my dream of attending various Rendezvous both here in Alaska and elsewhere maybe.

What kind or brand of flintlock would be acceptable in an AMM camp should I be lucky enough to be invited?

Understand that semi retired forester/biologists don't have the income stroke that retired engineers/doctors have, please advise.

I've been looking at the Lyman GPR but don't know if they and the production guns would be acceptable.

I'd like an early GPR or Hawken gun in flintlock that would be 32" to 36" long to emulate the Ashley Days 1823 to 1840 era and to shoot targets and game with too like I've done with my 1:48 .50 caliber TC for many years.

I'll be getting .54 GM TC 1:66 drop in barrel for my TC Hawken. That gun fits me well and then I'd have a real RB gun.

AMM men please let me know! Thank you!

Glen Holt
I’m late to this thread and I don’t know what type of gun you would need to have to have to be part off AMM group but I wanna say my bit about your quest .
Good on you for having this goal to try to become 100% accurate to meet their requirements.
And,
good on AMM for having and enforcing their rules that keep the focus of their memdership on track to meet the organization objectives.
One can make judgements about the strictness of being historically correct but I like that their group has gone to these measures to achieve and continue to stay within their main focus.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Yea, snooty know it alls think their opinions are the only valid ones. That’s why I do VERY little Rendevouz or re-enacting.

By the way I guess Ashley, HBC and L&C only issued J&S Hawkens before the per-suction era. Oh that’s right the fur companies didn’t “issue” guns, they sold guns to those without one like they did on traps and such - on credit.

Then they complain about declines participation.

Snooty know it alls were with the fur company because they NEED someone to show how much they know and to tell it all to. They lead a pack of "joiners", club guys, followers, and hangers on. If a fella thinks of that type as "MM" then I suppose there was two types.

The other type of mountain man, I believe, didn't give a flip what the joiners, leaders, or any one else for that matter thought, wanted, or suggested. The whole reason for living that life was to be away from those sort of Lilliputians.

 

[azmntman]

"The other type of mountain man, I believe, didn't give a flip what the joiners, leaders, or any one else for that matter thought, wanted, or suggested. The whole reason for living that life was to be away from those sort of Lilliputians."

Thats ME!!

 

[Tanglefoot]

If you're looking for a flinter that will meet AMM standards and don't want to spring for a custom gun or make your own from a kit, try one of the Brown Bess replicas on the market or an 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle or a Dixie Gun Works Tennessee Mountain Rifle. Dixie has the last two, Navy Arms markets a version of the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle, and there are plenty of Brown Bess replicas out there. BTW The 1803 Harper's Ferry is the rifle carried by members of the Lewis & Clark Expedition. JJ Henry Trade Rifles are correct for the era but as far as I know there are no factory-produced copies available and customs are pricey ... upwards of $1,000 each, probably. Leman Trade Rifles are the same way. You can see a good many original Fur Trade Era rifles and smoothbores at the Museum Of The Fur Trade site, and the Museum Of The Mountain Men site. A company in Nevada called "JJ Henry Artificiers" makes excellent copies of the Henry Trade Rifles and they also have a website.
There floats my stick,
Tanglefoot

 

[Alaskan Woodsman]

If you're looking for a flinter that will meet AMM standards and don't want to spring for a custom gun or make your own from a kit, try one of the Brown Bess replicas on the market or an 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle or a Dixie Gun Works Tennessee Mountain Rifle. Dixie has the last two, Navy Arms markets a version of the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle, and there are plenty of Brown Bess replicas out there. BTW The 1803 Harper's Ferry is the rifle carried by members of the Lewis & Clark Expedition. JJ Henry Trade Rifles are correct for the era but as far as I know there are no factory-produced copies available and customs are pricey ... upwards of $1,000 each, probably. Leman Trade Rifles are the same way. You can see a good many original Fur Trade Era rifles and smoothbores at the Museum Of The Fur Trade site, and the Museum Of The Mountain Men site. A company in Nevada called "JJ Henry Artificiers" makes excellent copies of the Henry Trade Rifles and they also have a website.
There floats my stick,
Tanglefoot

Good stuff Old Ugly and Tanglefoot;

I did try to contact JJ Henry Artificiers and they were busy at that time and not accepting orders, at that time. No doubt in my mind, he/they, know what they are doing and what they are talking about. That kind of rifle, or a late Lancaster, or Leman or simply a NW style trade gun (smooth bore) would fill the bill nicely. For me it seems now, after studying the topic, that knowing what the early fur trade rendezvous era trappers carried is maybe as far as I will go.

No doubt there are plenty of gun makers that could turn out a good period correct gun. Not taking anything away from the others, I saw a beautiful JJ Henry type rifle in TOW not long ago made by Steve (?) Loosey from Wisconsin. If I was to win the sweepstakes, I'd get me one just like it.

 

[histappmsn]

I have been an AMM member for 35 yrs.
I found a way to get sponsored as it was the direction I wanted to go, deeper into the era with like minded people. The AMM as an organization is 50 yrs old. Started by men returned from the Vietnam war, wishing to form a survivalist group emulating the ultimate survivor, the mountain man.
The average membership runs over 500 men world wide. These men come from all occupations and walks of life. Many are specialists or become that way in different aspects of fur trade history. Aside from the field and time requirements, AMM has an educational mandate and therefore the required documentation for equipment and methods. The dedication required to reach Hiveranno degree encompasses years of work.
We are open to the world for men with the desire to learn, improve, and dedicate.
AMM Hiv1166

 

[Tanglefoot]

I keep reading "1803 Springfield" in these posts. If someone has one of those, please post a photo of it in this forum? My first muzzleloading rifle was an 1803 Harper's Ferry and while I've been doing this since Bridger was a bound boy, I didn't know Springfield 1803's existed. The 1803 Harper's Ferry was the rifle carried by the L&C expedition. BTW, I do agree with several others in suggesting that the 20 gauge flint Trade Gun would be a good starter piece for a beginner.
TOTW makes a good kit for that.

 

[Brad McCaffree]

I began my buckskinning life some 27ish years ago. I spent a ton of money on tents, cots, cast iron and the like. Google wasn't a thing, and frankly, the good info just wasn't readily available easily. 5 years ago, I watched folks spend hours unloading from a trailer, to camp for 3 days. I began to simplify. When I did, I found it much easier on my back LOL. I never had heard of the AMM. I got approached by several and got the AMM bug. I liked the simpicity of their camps, and the brotherhood. I have sewn all my clothes, and my trail tarp. I found blankets and skillets at garage sales. A horse isn't required. I spent more money doing it wrong, then doing it right. There are "snobs" in all hobbys. I have met some. I farm now, but when I get free time, I'm on the ground. Since Sept., I have fullfilled 6 of the 10 needed requirements. It's a journey. I carry a NW trade gun, which has made meat 4x. I have seen them sell for $500 or less used. When you say "costly"..it's what YOU want to spend. I love my brothers in the MRB. I still attend buckskinner camps and have a ball. But I really enjoy sitting at a fire, discussing history! Pilgrim Bullet

 

[Loyalist Dave]

1. Must have a full set of hand-cut and -sewn clothing and handmade accoutrements. These must be researched for authenticity of the 1800-40 period and be of a type which would have been seen on men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains. Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets, and other accoutrements that would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need not be handmade, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today.
http://americanmountainmen.org/membership/requirements/

Pretty much eliminates any production gun that can be purchased today....

Perhaps the requirements have changed over time but ...,

"Once sponsored, to become a full-fledged member of the AMM, you must complete any ten of the requirements below during your two year Pilgrim (probationary) period."



So One Could…,

2. Must have spent at least two days and one night in a primitive camp during each season of the year.

4. Must have spent at least one full week in a primitive encampment in the company of other members at the territorial AMM Rendezvous (Eastern or Western) and/or the National (Rocky Mountain) AMM Rendezvous.


5. Must be able to demonstrate the skills needed for primitive survival in the wilderness of his area and must be willing to teach said skills to other members when requested by a Party Booshway or Director of this Association.


7. Must be able to demonstrate ability to track man or animal under natural wilderness conditions.


8. Must be able to demonstrate the ability to properly pack a horse, canoe (or bullboat), or a man for distance travel under possible adverse conditions.


9. Must be able to properly field dress (clean and skin) a game animal under primitive conditions.


10. Must be able to start a fire in wet, as well as dry, weather using flint and steel or fire drill using tinder and wood found under natural conditions.


11. Must be able to show ability to tan or Indian-dress hides.


13. Must be able to cook a meal of meat using only the meat, fire, a knife, and materials found in nature.


15. Must have hunted for and killed at least one game or fur animal with a muzzleloading firearm or primitive bow and must have used the skin and/or meat for food, clothing and/or accoutrements. The hunt must be made from a strictly primitive camp, the hunt accomplished under primitive conditions within the limits of local game laws.

Pretty much doesn't eliminate the factory gun, and you don't need to own a horse, or an authentic firearm, so for the OP, YES a flintlock Hawken from TC would be acceptable under the rules of the AMM.


LD

 

[KHickam]

Okay to the gun question, any good gun of the period would be acceptable. TVM, and other makers, I personally carry an early Virginia type, a 1792/94 contract rifle, and a NW Trade gun type. Several I know carry Lancaster type rifles.

Requirement for membership #1 and #2 requirements are required to be completed and any 8 of the others to advance from Pilgrim (probationary) member to Bossloper, within two years after you have been invited and sponsored (pilgrim card) but you have to be a member for 1 yr before you are eligible to advance to Bossloper, after all you have to attend camps in each season. Once completed and approved to Bossloper you have to be a member for three years after becoming a Bossloper ie I became a Bossloper in 2015 I am now eligible to advance to Hiveranno but have to complete all 20 requirements first, I think I have four left. Reason for being a member is brotherhood and fellowship,

Dan'l
AMM Bossloper#2085

 

[Mad Irish Jack]

One PC reason for the FLINTlock in AMM is the reliability of the mechanism. Caps were hard to come by out west and at a price. Flint could be found for free on the earth, in the streams and rivers, AND almost any hard stone material will spray spark in an emergency. And they're free for the picking. Smooth bored weapons were also preferred due to the ability to feed anything down bore for use as projectiles in emergency. Emergency is a word the mountainman/trappers were familiar with. They learned to adapt or they went under. Short lesson done.

 

[Jamie Laws]

This has been a great thread to read. I hope I too can be of service to you.
I have been a member of the AMM for 5 years. I have had several guns in that time period. Along with that, your gun is the most important single piece of equipment you will have. Percussion guns are allowed, but they narrow your time period to a much smaller and later time. You wouldn't want to dress in a more eastern fashion and be carrying a Hawken. As stated striker in the thread they didnt really come into full swing until the later 1840's.
That being said, I do carry a small percussion pistol.
When I first joined the AMM my rifle of the time was a Traditional "kentucky" rifle. Nothing about that gun is period correct, so I made a few modifications to it. For instance, it has a two piece stock. Where the two pieces coke together I wrapped in rawhide to look like an old time repair. You can also upgrade the lock. L&R has a great replacement kick to fit that gun. No one said anything to me about it. I know have two more flintlock rifles and leave the traditions at home.
The two year period and the 10 requirements are really nothing to fear. With a good Spencer and a willingness to get things done, you will have no time getting then done. I have one friend that has completed 14 thus far and is waiting for his one year to come up before he can complete his bossoloper paperwork, and I have another friend that is now a bossloper who was in the same situation. During an outing you can do multiple requirements at the same event.
As stated by Dan'l requirements 1&2 are required within your first two years and you can pick from the rest to complete your ten.
We are a small organization with only 5-600 active members. We are always looking for like minded individuals. If there is anyway I can help you, please feel free to ask

Jamie Laws
B.2081

 

[Huntschool]

Well, just a comment or two.... I am new here but not to muzzle loading, buck skinning and/or the AMM. My membership # is 761 which goes back a good ways. I was very active with AMM back a number of years ago even hosting two Eastern "Nationals" at our place in S. Illinois.

I have enjoyed the company of many fine men in this organization. Although my professional life took me away from the brotherhood for a number of years I returned to it.

As to requirements of membership; I think if one were interested one should get in touch with a local member and have them guide you through the steps. The Party I was associated back in the day were very active so there was always a camp going on somewhere the a person could attend. Getting through all the requirements does take some work but with the help of other members its not bad and in the end I think one would find it rewarding.

As to firearms, lets remember this is basically a pre 1840 situation with men traveling to or already in the Western mountains. That does suggest flint guns but as Tanglefoot (a good friend) said there are guns available for you to start with so don't worry.

If anyone has questions feel free to email or PM me her. Email may be better....

 

[Alaskan Woodsman]

Very interesting responses and much appreciated. As indicated earlier, I probably won't pursue "membership" in the AMM due to my zip code (Alaska) but I thoroughly enjoy their website and will check out their magazine. I hope additional young(er) men continue to become interested in our early American history, the muzzle loader arts, survival skills (for their own sake) and rendezvous/camps.

I have at times belonged to the McKinley Mountain Men Muzzleloading Rifle Club (think I got their name right) here in Alaska. They are a great group of folks, families etc. and we have some really fun shoots with traditional muzzleloaders and lots of history buffs and historic re-enactors that strive to practice period methods. Many of us brought our interests north pursuing work/lifestyle and were previously enthused with the Mountain Man period of history or earlier ML history.

It is great to hear from AMM members along with the rest of us, as they seem like an organization dedicated to actually re-creating "how it was". All of this is quite interesting. Glen

 

[Rifleman1776]

The AMM as an organization is 50 yrs old. Started by men returned from the Vietnam war,

That explains a lot. My limited association with AMM was always a disappointing experience. I was never able to 'sync' into the dynamics of their conversations and relationship. I am a Viet Nam era overseas vet but never set foot in country. So, I'm sure I never developed the "brotherhood" bonding that exists with those who did. I still respect and love all my brother vets but some of us will always be outsiders in that regard.

 

[Huntschool]

That explains a lot. My limited association with AMM was always a disappointing experience. I was never able to 'sync' into the dynamics of their conversations and relationship. I am a Viet Nam era overseas vet but never set foot in country. So, I'm sure I never developed the "brotherhood" bonding that exists with those who did. I still respect and love all my brother vets but some of us will always be outsiders in that regard.

Rifleman1776:

I am truly sorry to hear of your less then good experiences with some AMM folks. I really do not think the reason, as you paraphrased from "histappmsn" regarding VN in country vets. I suspect the situation may have been more related to just the group you tried to interact with. Then, of course, with no malice intended, some of it could have been your approach..... as we all know, "people are people" and each has their own personality.

I can recall at one of the Eastern's we hosted we were warned about several folk who were coming that they were "Hyper primitive" and could not even get along with their own party. Well, when those folks arrived it was obvious they had put in the time and effort to be correct and may have been a bit cocky about but after some conversation with them about how we in the East felt about things they all turned out to be pretty great guys..... Its a thing.

I don't know where you are located or I would try and put you in touch with the right folks and perhaps you might get a different outlook.

If I can be of any help please let me know. Yes, our age group is the one in the organization with the biggest numbers so there is some social flow... we are, after all, Baby Boomers......

Just some thoughts.