Barrel Condition

[Comfortably_Numb]

I never heard of spermwhale oil used in MLs, never mind tranny fluid. I read accounts of oldtimers swearing on everything from bear to goose fat to beeswax and combinations. While I'm adventurous enough to know that M2HB's and 240B's run just fine 10W40, I have never thought of using petroleum on my ML's. See, difference is, I didn't buy the machineguns.

I used to use sperm whale oil for a patch lube. Had to quit when somebody robbed my shop and took my supply. They were very particular about what they took, like they knew what they were looking for and where it was. Took enough stuff to build a rifle too. I know who did it. It's Ok now though because he croaked. I should go and talk to his widow about getting the stuff back.....

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

I used to use sperm whale oil for a patch lube. Had to quit when somebody robbed my shop and took my supply. They were very particular about what they took, like they knew what they were looking for and where it was. Took enough stuff to build a rifle too. I know who did it. It's Ok now though because he croaked. I should go and talk to his widow about getting the stuff back.....

Bad juju to steal guns. I had a S&W in the post-modern .36-ish cal. walk off on me one time. Sole suspect wound up pushing up daisies not long after. Shot himself in the liver with a whiskey cork, so they tell me. Bad juju.

Mostly I shoot carefully-culled cast Minie Balls, greased with beeswax an' a touch of pig fat. I don't know that there's enough difference to make a difference twixt store-bought pre-lubed patches, spit-wet t-shirt wrapped round the ball an' hacked off after the short-start, or the Ol' Lady's stolen silk knickers. Not out to where I shoot RB, leastways.

Bad juju stealin' guns.

 

[Nav]

Buy lead removing solution.

Google: Shooter's Choice.


50/50 White Vinegar and Hydrogen Peroxide works well as a lead remover too.

And far cheaper.

That’s does work very well, but it creates a suspension of lead acetate, which is very poisonous, and there’s no good way to get rid of it. You don’t want that on your skin, period.

Not telling you not to do it. I’ve done it, but you need a hood fume hood and real lab gloves, or it isn’t worth it.

I am NOT a safety Nazi. I run with scissors, jump motorcycles and everything, but google lead acetate and form your own conclusions.

 

[longcruise]

If there is lead in in my ml or if there is any suspicion I hit it with steel wool on a jag. If it's there it shows up in the steel wool.

 

[Nav]

Yea, but steel on steel will also scratch the crap out of your barrel. It would be better to use some bronze wool that's softer than the barrel, but harder than lead.

 

[longcruise]

Yea, but steel on steel will also scratch the manure out of your barrel. It would be better to use some bronze wool that's softer than the barrel, but harder than lead.

I sort of agree but also don't see it as steel on steel. Steel wool is pretty soft.

In the late '80's my club was a hotbed of Scheutzen competition. The typical competitors were shooting highly refined single shot dedicated Scheutzen rifles. Many made by the shooter themselves.

They could easily check the leading in their barrel simply by looking through it. It was common for them to wipe their bores with steel wool between targets. I'm sure if they observed damage they wouldn't have done it.

 

[kyron4]

I used to use sperm whale oil for a patch lube. Had to quit when somebody robbed my shop and took my supply. They were very particular about what they took, like they knew what they were looking for and where it was. Took enough stuff to build a rifle too. I know who did it. It's Ok now though because he croaked. I should go and talk to his widow about getting the stuff back.....

Nothing worse in this world than a thief.

 

[deerstalkert]

I used to use sperm whale oil for a patch lube. Had to quit when somebody robbed my shop and took my supply. They were very particular about what they took, like they knew what they were looking for and where it was. Took enough stuff to build a rifle too. I know who did it. It's Ok now though because he croaked. I should go and talk to his widow about getting the stuff back.....

my personal philosophy about a thief is that he is a serial murderer. He steals a portion of a persons life every time he steals something you spent a irretrievable portion of your life to obtain. your run of the mill murderer only takes one life. open season on thieves around my neck of the woods.

 

[Nav]

Steel wool feels soft, but it isn’t. It’s steel and has the hardness of steel. Its like sandpaper. It‘s probably a hundred times more abrasive than the blue JB paste used to lap a barrel. Don’t ever put it down your barrel. Just don’t. The only guys I’ve seen clean with paste are the bench rest guys, and they use the less abrasive red JB at the end of a match. Their barrels are so smooth that they look like a penny because the copper fouling is so even. If your barrel cost less than a grand I wouldn’t do this either.
If you have to have it as clean as the day the button was pulled through it chuck a cleaning rod and a brass brush and long stroke spin it. I don’t do this, but I’ve seen it proven it won’t hurt the barrel, despite the horror it has caused in some of the finest barrel makers. That‘s about as extreme as you should go.
A match grade barrel from Bartlein, Proof Research, Hawk Hill, Kreiger, etc. will have not tool chatter, and the lands and grooves will be perfect. These benefit from a borescope and being “clean” clean. Any factory barrel, and I certainly suspect most muzzle loader barrels, will not be perfect by a long stretch. Some leading and copper fouling will actually fill in the imperfections and improve accuracy. Savage rifles are famous for their ugly barrels full of tool chatter, but they still shoot straight once you put a couple dozen pills down them they fill in and season out. Cleaning them all the way down will actually degrade percision, as I suspect it will most muzzle loading barrels. Excessive leading may reduce accuracy too, but normal long stroking with a brass brush ought to remove the right amount. As always the proof is on the target, and with guns and percision there is always a measure of witchcraft so you have to find what works for that rifle.

 

[Sooty Scot]

Great bore pictures.
What brand/model borescope are you using? Mine is good enough to have given me a similar shock, but on a smooth bore. Bringing it back to mirror-smooth was easier than what you faced.

Yea, I'm compulsive about bore (and general) maintenance, too,

Mine's 2nd hand & a reputable brand but lacks the mirror for lateral view. Requests to the mfg were unanswered, so I make do. If I had one, I might have already had "the big one".

BTW, you bore looks pretty good to me. I've found an undersized brush, wrapped in 0000 steel wool pretty effective on stubborn deposits. I've dosed it w/ paint rubbing compound and "Bartender's Friend" (oxalic acid + mild abrasive)- {not together) - w/ satisfactory effect.

 

[Nav]

Maybe in a smooth bore. I would NOT do that on any rifle.
”There are an infinite number of ways to take metal off a rifle. There are none to put it back on.”

 

[Kansas Jake]

I’ve used copper scrub pads to clean nasty bores. The kind made for scrubbing pots and pans in the kitchen. They work well. Just be sure to check they aren’t copper plated steel. I find them at Ace hardware. Many in the grocery and big box stores are the copper plated.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

Maybe in a smooth bore. I would NOT do that on any rifle.
”There are an infinite number of ways to take metal off a rifle. There are none to put it back on.”

Aye. I'm thinking rounding off them nice sharp edges on the lands and grooves could only be improved by taking a center-punch to the crown.
I'd not be sticking anything harder than my barrel down it.

 

[longcruise]

@Nav Thanks for a well thought out and detailed post.

But, we still don't agree. I think that some of your information regarding modern precision barrels is positively informative but not so much on point with ml barrels.

There are very few makers of precision ml barrels whose work comes anywhere near the quality of work being done by the modern precision makers. Further, the advent of non corrosive primers has made a huge difference in the longevity of modern barrels. Even those that are treated with what would have previously been considered gross neglect.

Not so with our ml guns. We continue in the use of our highly corrosive propellant, including modern subs. The traditional use of the patched ball has, when the patch is properly fitted, been the protection against lead deposits. But, the use of conical lead bullets has made lead deposits in our relatively rough ml barrels pretty much much a certainty.

Then when the failure to remove the lead is combined with the lead covering the BP fouling the result is fouling traps between the lead and the barrel steel. The result is corrosion and pitting.

I found your concept of the improvement of modern barrels by the smoothing action of copper deposits to be very interesting but given the above I don't consider it a viable strategy for conditioning an ml barrel.

I have seen personally the results of fouling trapped under lead in an ml barrel so that's why I'm adamant about the necessity of removing it. Also why I rarely shoot conicals in my ml guns anymore and prefer the patched ball to having to deal with actual or even possible lead deposits.

My method of removal is steel wool and I see no evidence of it doing any damage to the bore. But for those who are reluctant to use it then I say all well and good but at least use some reliable method of getting the lead out.

As long as we are letting modern stuff into the topic, every shooter of lead bullets in cartridge guns knows that lead deposits are inevitable and that they cause declining accuracy. So it's probably true in a ml gun as well.

 

[Nav]

Fair enough. That makes sense to me. I’m new to ML, and have a lot to learn. I get that you want every bit of lead out of the barrel, but there is just no question that steel wool is killing your rifling. It works so well because it is cutting the steel. Plenty of people have destroyed barrels by lapping too much with JB and knocking the edges off their rifling, and that's mild next to using steel.

There are some products advertising they remove lead from a barrel, but none are actual lead solvents except The Dip. That's because the precipitate is so poisonous. No one would sell an actual lead solvent. That said, if you are adamant to get ALL the ledding out of your barrel I still think long stroking it with a brass brush, albeit tedious and time consuming, is the only way to go. As another poster said, wrapping your brush with some copper/brass (brass wool, Chore Boy, etc.) can make it cut a little faster, and lubing it up with Kroil could make it come loose more easily, but I don't see a way around elbow grease that preserves your gun's rifling.

I'm sure the steel wool works better, but at what cost?

 

[waksupi]

out.

As long as we are letting modern stuff into the topic, every shooter of lead bullets in cartridge guns knows that lead deposits are inevitable and that they cause declining accuracy. So it's probably true in a ml gun as well.

Absolutely false. I shoot lead exclusively in my modern bolt actions, have been doing it for 30+ years, and have zero leading. One rifle of mine I know has had well over a thousand rounds through it, and the barrel is pristine. I can't remember the last time I even cleaned the bore, and it still shoots into 1.25" at 100 yards any day. There are other members of the Cast Boolits board here, and I would bet they will tell you the same thing. You just need to understand the requirements of cast bullets to be successful.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

@Nav Thanks for a well thought out and detailed post.


There are very few makers of precision ml barrels whose work comes anywhere near the quality of work being done by the modern precision makers.

 

[longcruise]

@DementedMindOfJac And I would place Rice right there among the top makers. Rice cuts the rifling and then chases that rifling with a button. That makes for an excellent barrel.

. Plenty of people have destroyed barrels by lapping too much with JB and knocking the edges off their rifling, and that's mild next to using steel.

Interestingly some excellent ml barrels over hundreds of years have had round rifling!!

I'm sure the steel wool works better, but at what cost?

That's a good question. It begs actual scientific investigation. I won't be doing it but maybe someone will be curious enough to set it up and do it.

 

[longcruise]

@waksupi I don't doubt that you have done just that. I've done the same with some guns but not all. Maybe I was a bit over the top with the "every shooter" remark. Maybe I'll go over to CB and run a poll for clarification.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I know a guy that goes 8,000= lead rounds in a completion revolver in 38sp. without cleaning. really doesn't apply to muzzlelloaders though.